Amphib landing against sub

[rgp44]

the crux of the question is whether the scrambling forces a sea battle and nullifies the escorted transports ability to ignore the subs, since the carrier has no attack capability and the other combat units are planes, if the sub cannot be ignored the amphib landing is impossible which is how i understand the rule based on the answers i got.

[Commando Brado]

The AC DOES have a combat value in this situation as the scramble happens, plus the sub fighrs. Therefore the AC has a defense value of 2. The AC is not attacking, it is DEFENDING at 2 against the scramble and possible attack of the Sub at 1. I think you’re at this wrong…

[Commando Brado]

If the situation is 1 AC at 2 escorting the Trans, against 1 Sub at 1 and 1 FTR at 4. Not great odds but the AC has 2 hits so you could win the battle. Depends on how many AC’s are defending and how many subs would be participating and how many FTR’s scrambling…

[rgp44]

i understood scrambling fighters to be defending (that’s why they fight at 4) which would mean the CV is attacking and thus has no attack capability.

[Commando Brado]

Here’s how the mechanics work. It is the AC’s players turn. The AC is escorting the Trans to the amphib assault b/cuz there’s an enemy sub in the SZ. The rules state if an enemy sub is present in the SZ from which an amphib assault is happening, the Trans needs to be escorted by a warship to avoid the sub sinking the Transports. The AC and Trans can ignore the sub since it’s a sub and only if there’s subs in the SZ. If there were surface warships in the SZ, they surface warships would need to be cleared before the amphib assault could happen. However, since there is also a FTR and/or Tac that can scramble in the SZ, NOW a combat is happening. Since a combat is happening, the AC’s DEFENSIVE value is taken into effect. Not it’s attack value. Remember, the AC did not start the combat phase attacking anything. It was only after the defending player decided to scramble that a combat occured. Therefore the AC DEFENDS itself at 2.

Like I said, if there was a destroyer in the hex, the amphib assault could not happen b/cuz the contested SZ would need to be cleared first and the AC has not attack value. The above rule only applies to SZ’s where an amphib assault is happening and only has enemy subs in it…

[Gargantua]

The AC DOES have a combat value in this situation as the scramble happens, plus the sub fighrs. Therefore the AC has a defense value of 2. The AC is not attacking, it is DEFENDING at 2 against the scramble and possible attack of the Sub at 1. I think you’re at this wrong…

What drugs are you on? :)

The AC isn’t defending anything, it’s attacking.

On YOUR OWN turn, you never roll DEFENDER’s dice. Ever.

Scrambling is a DEFENSE of a sea zone, not an attack.  Anyone who enters a sea-zone, and is scrambled against, is attacking said sea zone.

In the mentioned scenario, the ACC has an attack value of 0, period.

[Gargantua]

It was only after the defending player decided to scramble that a combat occured. Therefore the AC DEFENDS itself at 2.

lol…

[zanetheinsane]

So how is combat resolved with this one? There were a lot of posts but nothing really structured. Let’s expand this scenario:

Assume we had an AC with two FTR and then the transport. Defending area is 1 sub and 1 FTR ready to scramble.

Amphibious assault is announced, the attacking fighters move into the sea zone (with the enemy sub), the transport and AC advance into the sea zone.

I do know that when you initiate the fighter scramble, sea units are drawn into combat, thus the submarine enters the fight. From the FAQ:

If you declare an amphibious assault from a sea zone containing only enemy subs and/or transports and you choose to ignore them, but your opponent scrambles fighters into the sea zone, you may no longer ignore the subs/transports. The scrambling of air units into the sea zone forces a sea battle, so all units in the sea zone will participate in it.

Now the original question: Let’s say that the defending fighter gets destroyed in round 1 (for simplicity) and the attacker suffers no casualties. Round 2 (and beyond) you have two fighters attacking that cannot hit the submarine and the AC which cannot attack (because it has no attack value).

What happens in this scenario? I know the FAQ states that:

Units that have no attack value (aircraft carriers and transports) may not attack a sea zone by themselves. In order to carry out an attack, at least one unit with an attack value must participate. This includes sinking defenseless transports. However, this does not prevent transports from attempting to conduct an amphibious assault alone if there are only enemy units within the sea zone that may initiate optional defenses, such as air units that may scramble.

Does this apply here? I imagine the carried fighters nullify that. Would the end result be that the submarine autosinks the carrier and the planes have to find somewhere to fly back to? The above doesn’t mention ships with no attack value, just units.

[Der Kuenstler]

With nothing to attack with, your units would have to retreat.

[WILD BILL]

Original question:

@rgp44:

If transports are escorted by a carrier and several planes can ignore a sub what happens if the defender scrambles a single plane into the sea zone?  The attacker will wipe out the defending fighter but what happens to the sub?  Does the sub enter the battle because of the scramble and therefore sink any tranpsorts since the attacker can’t hit him? or is the sub still ignored, or is the sub ignored as soon as the defending fighter is killed?

Reviewing the scenario:

Attacker has a carrier + frt/tac w/loaded transport. The def sz has a sub, but can also scramble one plane (ftr). The attacker announces he is ignoring the sub, then doing an amphib. The defender then says hold on a minute, I’m scrambling my ftr.

Because of the scramble, the sub can no longer be ignored, and is considered in the battle by rule. There is no attacking dd, so the sub could still submerge, but that would be silly at this point because the attacker can’t kill it. Attacking planes w/o a dd can’t hit def sub, and the attacking carrier has no attack value.

Result:
If for some reason the def sub submerges, then the amphib goes on as long as the scrambled ftr is killed in the battle.

If the def sub stays to fight (which it should if defender scrambled, because attacker can’t kill it), then because the attacker can’t clear the sz, after one round of battle the attacker can retreat (must go one round). There would be no reason for the attacker to stay in the battle. He can’t kill the sub, and eventually the sub will roll 1’s to kill the carrier, then the transport. So retreating is really his only feasible option.

This is an interesting situation. The attacker going in should know that if defender scrambles, the mission could be dead in the water, but he will get a good chance to kill the def ftr. He would be risking units though, because if the def sub does hit (rolling at 1), the hit would have to go to the carrier (sub can’t hit planes). If the carrier suffers a hit, then the air units need to land somewhere else (can they, or is their range maxed out?).

For the defender, the scrambled ftr will most likely be killed, but by scrambling, you kept the sub in the battle and stopped the amphib. Was it worth it, or could you have defended the island w/ftr (I don’t know what other units you had defending the island).

This was my interpretation of the rules, cool scenario though.

[Gargantua]

There is a semi applicable way to use this… even when you KNOW you won’t be able to launch the amphibious assault.

You do FORCE your opponent to scramble his fighter, so simply launch the amphib, knowing that you’ll likely be forced to retreat, and then force your opponent either to scramble, or face the landing!  Nice…

[Spendo02]

So in the situation where you have only aircraft facing a SS and you wish to amphib a TT in the combat zone - the defender effectively blocks the landing:

Defender wouldn’t want the landing (hence the suicide scramble).  By sacrificing the Ftr, but getting the sub into combat - the defender would choose to never submerge the sub after each round of battle.  Which, in effect forces combat to continue infinitely until the attacker decides to withdraw and abandon the Amphib Landing.

Effective use of a Ftr and SS to block if you ask me.

[Witt]

Lesson: bring a DD along when there are Subs around and you are serious about landing!
Brilliant scenario though.