How to balance a round 1 Japanese Declaration of War

[SilverAngelSurfer]

@kaufschtick:

@Variable:

@Gharen:

It has been over 3 and a half months now that the game has been out, and I think the Allies can win this game if Japan attacks turn 1.  People still play the defensive mindset of saving India, you have to go on the offensive against Japan and I truly think you need to attempt to cut Japans forces in half but cutting directly to Phillipines and Guam.  I think people are getting too hasty to put a bid on the game while only trying out a handful of options.

This is where I’m coming from too. I don’t believe there are any changes needed in the game to fairly use the J1 attack. We, as players, need to find the strategies necessary to make the J2 attack as viable as the J1 attack; whether that means better J1 Allied defenses, or better J2 Axis attacks, to maintain the variability in playout that we seek.

I’m in the same camp. I don’t think any changes are needed, and I think the J1 attack probably always was what the designers thought would be the best option for the Japanese.

The Prince of Wales & Repulse were sunk by Japanese Nell bombers right at the outset of the war, the PI fell, and Singapore shortly after that.

If that’s the case, maybe the designers left it that way so the game could follow relatively accurately the historical playout?  In which case can we learn anything from the strategies actually used by the Allies in WW2?

[kaufschtick]

@SilverAngelSurfer:

If that’s the case, maybe the designers left it that way so the game could follow relatively accurately the historical playout?  In which case can we learn anything from the strategies actually used by the Allies in WW2?

Well, one thing I believe happened was that Truk got bypassed, if I’m not mistaken.

New Guinea was a pretty big deal too.

I know that one thing we’ve been taking a close look at is the situation where the US builds 2 transports on US1, then on US2 they place a naval base on Wake Island and the fleet moves there on US2. Now, you don’t have to place a naval base on Wake Island unless you, as the Americans, are trying to position yourselves in such a way as to have a shot at getting into Guam on US3. I think the main thing with this particular move is to try to maximize your options as the US for US3.

But getting back to historical things and how they might relate to the game, I also thought that while the US is setting up at Wake (or you could set up at Hawaii too; like I said, Wake isn’t a must), that the US could send it’s 2 bombers to Queensland on US1, and from there, they have a pretty good reach, in particular, they could kill any unescorted transports trying to sneak into Guam on J2 from Japan. They would have to land in, of all places, New Guinea. But from ANZAC New Guinea, they are in a perfect position to hit Truk on US3, in the land portion, if that becomes an option. The US will have 3 fully loaded transports that could invade Truk as well, again; if the opportunity presented itself.

Japan’s going to set the tempo of the game out of the gates, but I think it’s just a matter of taking in all the possibilities the Japanese can throw at the Allies, before the appropriate Allied responses start to become apparent.

My best friend and I had the game to a point were we felt it was pretty even when we were playing the J2 & J3 attacks.

Then we started looking at the J1 attacks and all, the whole time thinking that the game must surely take on some new direction or look. Well, to be honest with you, I’m not seeing the game being any different with the J1 than a later attack. Oh sure, the situation is different as far as pieces present on the board, but the overall position isn’t any different. Japan still has some choices to make as far as what direction they want to go, and the Allies have to respond.

[allweneedislove]

i know there are good players that read this site. i also know there are creative minds on how to correct game problems.

i am looking for a way to balance a j1dow with later dows. any feedback on my ideas or ideas of your own would be appreciated.

my order of importance for change is as follows
strategically make j1dow = j2 or later dow
simple to understand
minimal change to game mechanics
historical reality takes a back seat to strategy, but if historical thats a bonus

[Bigtiti]

give japan more ground forces on the mainland is the key to balancing the game
or extra transport at first round

[WILD BILL]

@Frontovik:

give japan more ground forces on the mainland is the key to balancing the game
or extra transport at first round

Frontovik LMAO, I don’t think that’s exactly what allweneedislove had in mind. Of coarse it might not be as funny an option in the global game.

[allweneedislove]

@Frontovik:

give japan more ground forces on the mainland is the key to balancing the game
or extra transport at first round

hi front thanks for the input. however, i am looking at how to balance a j1 dow to a j2 dow. your suggestion does not do it.

it sounds like you think allies are favoured and are trying to balance the game. i am not so worried about balancing the game because a bid can be done for that.

[WILD BILL]

@allweneedislove:

@Frontovik:

give japan more ground forces on the mainland is the key to balancing the game
or extra transport at first round

hi front thanks for the input. however, i am looking at how to balance a j1 dow to a j2 dow. your suggestion does not do it.

it sounds like you think allies are favoured and are trying to balance the game. i am not so worried about balancing the game because a bid can be done for that.

Now I am confused, your first two options are just that a built in bid.

I know I mentioned what has become the third option (move UK navy), to aid in your quest. I will say most games I’ve played to this point have favored axis w/J1 attack. I have not played enough games yet at this point to see if anything needs to be done however. I am still playing OOB/Errata looking at other (legal) ways to hinder Japans J1 attack. I feel its more fun/challenging to over come the odds when some people are saying “the odds are stacked against you”.

This game is designed for house rules. Some houses will lean in one direction, and will need a fix, others won’t.

[Bigtiti]

@allweneedislove:

@Frontovik:

give japan more ground forces on the mainland is the key to balancing the game
or extra transport at first round

hi front thanks for the input. however, i am looking at how to balance a j1 dow to a j2 dow. your suggestion does not do it.

it sounds like you think allies are favoured and are trying to balance the game. i am not so worried about balancing the game because a bid can be done for that.

J3 is usefull for australia
2 is in my games the only alternative for J1
but i have to admit: i tried J1 without attack phillipines, and had some very good dice, so i almost won
but if would had a bit more 6’s than 1’s it was again total defeat
i just can’t get how people win so easily as japan

[Variable]

How about move the Japanese transport from SZ33 to SZ6. Makes Japan choose targets on a J1 attack, or set up for a J2 attack. Is that more of what you had in mind?

[allweneedislove]

@WILD:

Now I am confused, your first two options are just that a built in bid.

I know I mentioned what has become the third option (move UK navy), to aid in your quest. I will say most games I’ve played to this point have favored axis w/J1 attack.

the first two options are not just a built in bid. the first two options are disincentives for a j1 dow. the additional ipcs are only added to the allies if it is a j1 dow. a bid could still be used to determine sides and balance the game.

balancing the game is easy, just use a bid. players have been using a bid for every version since original axis and allies.

balancing a j1dow with j2, j3, j4 dow is much more difficult.

[Bube]

IMO The game is balanced.  J1, J2, and J3.  I have won with Japan on all DOWs and beat other players on all DOWs.  After UK and China falls there is only an 8 dollar difference between Japan and the Allies.  Having 30 or so live games Im tending to think that the balance is good.  The J1 attack is hard to beat, The US and ANZAC players from the start have to  plan their game for when UK is gone.

One of my fav moves for US after a J1 DOW is

destroyer/trany to midway with 3 fig, 3 tac, 2 inf
rest of navy moves to Hiwaii

This does a couple things.  If japan attacks the midway destroyer light (scramble airforce) if they go heavy (dont scramble) and counter with everything in Hiwaii, airforce from midway and what ever you built last turn.  Most of the time they wont attack.  so now your navy is ready to attack Japan and cant get attacked. Your free to move stuff down to help ANAZC or take forward islands.  The destroyer “blocker” is a great move for US.  Japan might try to set a “blocker” of their own…. if they do the blast it with your bombers the destroyer wont hit that often and every destoroyer you kill evens the economy.

I know there is lots of holes in any strat and will prolly get picked apart take it or leave it.

[allweneedislove]

@Bube:

IMO The game is balanced.  J1, J2, and J3.  I have won with Japan on all DOWs and beat other players on all DOWs.

thanks for your input bube.

however, you winning all the time shows that you are better than your opponents. it does not show that the game is balanced as it is clearly not. but game balance can be shown in another thread.

this thread for players who have played enough to find out that a j1 dow > j2, j3, or j4 dow and the best way to balance the timing of the dow to add variability to the game.

[Variable]

@Variable:

How about move the Japanese transport from SZ33 to SZ6. Makes Japan choose targets on a J1 attack, or set up for a J2 attack. Is that more of what you had in mind?

Has anyone considered trying this? I don’t have any opponents available to test it right now…

[allweneedislove]

@kaufschtick:

…I’m in the same camp. I don’t think any changes are needed, and I think the J1 attack probably always was what the designers thought would be the best option for the Japanese.

thanks for the replies kaufschtick.

even if the designers thought that a j1 dow was best for the japanese it would be fun for us gamers to have a valid strategic option for when to have a dow.

@kaufschtick:

…My bud Buckeyeboy on here and I have have both commented how historically accurate the J1 attack appears. The US transport getting zapped at Pearl kinda represents the situation after Pearl Harbor without actually having to recreate that disaterous chapter of the war for the US…

remember the game starts in 1940 japan launched their surprise attacks on the uk/usa on the 7th/8th of december 1941. this is about 3 weeks from 1942 almost 2 years after the game starts. for a more historical playout usa would need to take a turn and non-combat move more naval pieces to pearl harbour then japan declares war and takes down more navy in that battle.

all this said historical accuracy is not what the game should be about otherwise japan gets crushed every game, and there is no variability in playouts

[allweneedislove]

@Variable:

How about move the Japanese transport from SZ33 to SZ6. Makes Japan choose targets on a J1 attack, or set up for a J2 attack. Is that more of what you had in mind?

thanks for the idea variable.

this is more what i had in mind. however, moving the transport from sz33 to sz6 does not hinder a j1 dow enough to make a j2 dow equivalent. the transport in sz6 can not reach the dutch territories but still can reach kwangtung, philippines, and french indo china on a j1 dow.

[Zhukov44]

The solution is do what the play-testers should have done.

Come up with cash ipc amounts that will be paid out to the Allies in case of a J1 or J2 DOW, and test the game enough that you come up with numbers (for ipcs) that will make a J1, J2 or J3 DOW roughly equal in terms of effectiveness.  Also figure out a fair distribution for the IPCs that doesn’t break the game.

I think you’ve already arrived at the solution Allweneedislove; it’s just a matter of play-testing to arrive at the appropriate ipc amounts to be paid out for each DOW.

[The Admirable Admiral]

I think simply not allowing Japan to build any factories should even things out since Japan is going to have to rely more on transports and sea routes than an armored push to India.

[allweneedislove]

@The:

I think simply not allowing Japan to build any factories should even things out since Japan is going to have to rely more on transports and sea routes than an armored push to India.

i also enjoy the logistical problems of japan having to transport its units, while protecting the transports. however, not allowing j to build an ic does not effect the the strength of a j1 dow compared to a j2 dow.

[allweneedislove]

@Zhukov44:

The solution is do what the play-testers should have done.

Come up with cash ipc amounts that will be paid out to the Allies in case of a J1 or J2 DOW, and test the game enough that you come up with numbers (for ipcs) that will make a J1, J2 or J3 DOW roughly equal in terms of effectiveness.  Also figure out a fair distribution for the IPCs that doesn’t break the game.

I think you’ve already arrived at the solution Allweneedislove; it’s just a matter of play-testing to arrive at the appropriate ipc amounts to be paid out for each DOW.

is there any difference between your idea and my idea number 2?

[jim010]

I’m playing bid.

I’m getting allies at $20 and still getting whooped.