Real value of units

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

Recollection of old arguments. Cruiser at 9 brings it closer.

True. That’s why, I tried to emphasized on different aspects.

What do you mean here?

Cruiser at 9 brings it closer.

9 IPCs, so you are making a joke.  :-D
Or 9 Destroyers or 9 cruisers, still not sure about what you mean’t.  :?

And about the 10.5 IPCs/cruiser,
I’m not trolling.
I can’t truly remember what was your way of cost calculation to get this price.
It is not rhetorical, you can make a point.  :-)

[Imperious Leader]

In Battle calculator you now have 9 destroyers and 8 cruisers ( given a new cost of 9 for CA). The margin is very close.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

In Battle calculator you now have 9 destroyers and 8 cruisers ( given a new cost of 9 for CA). The margin is very close.

Hi IL,
you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

8 Cruisers vs 9 Destroyers (10 000 times):

Overall %*: A. survives: 65% D. survives: 33.1% No one survives: 1.9%

The Cruiser is now crushing DD.

It can’t be balance to put CA at 9 IPCs.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

On AAA units, don’t know if it is a general observation and if all players agreed that there is very few AAA buying.

Maybe this unit is statistically balance in itself (power against planes/cost) but in the overall strategy it gets in competition with Inf A1D2C3 and Art A2D2C4 and for 1 more IPC, you get a unit blitzing up to 2 spaces: Tank A3D3C6.

Maybe the power of a AAA unit should be reduce and his cost also, to be more attractive.
I’m thinking something like an AAA unit working as OOB but against only 2 planes but at a 3 IPCs cost.
So when you get 2 AAA for 6 IPCs you get 2 hits and can defend against up to 4 planes.
AAA A0D0M1C3 1 hit, get 1 preemptive strike @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever is less.

---

Against planes it is just a little bit better:
2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
3 modified AAAs A0D0C9, 3 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.

Here I have a more drastic way to get a larger number of AAA unit but at a lower cost, being this way much more interesting to buy.
It will be less effective than the regular OOB but I’d like a comment of your part.

AAA A0D0M1C2 1 hit, can make up to 1@1 preemptive shot per plane at the beginning of a combat.

---

On balance:

Against planes, it is just a little weaker but have much more hits:
2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
5 cheap AAAs A0D0C10, 5 hits, can target up to 5 planes on the first round.

And vs my previous version:
2 modified AAAs A0D0C6, 2 hits, can target up to 4 planes on the first round.
3 cheap AAAs A0D0C6, 3 hits, can target up to 3 planes on the first round.

It is a 2 IPCs units, it is clearly affordable but much weaker than OOB AAA.
But is it too affordable?
Don’t forget that this unit at A0D0 have only a casualty value nothing else.

It can go down to a 4 IPCs unit and attack only up to 2 planes, but it still seems too weak and expensive.
It doesn’t have the appeal of a Mech Inf nor an Art.
That’s why I first lower the cost to 3 IPCs.
Maybe any 2 IPCs unit (even at A0D0) creates a too much bigger defensive change in the game dynamics.

---

Finally, on simplicity:

By going 1 unit : up to 1 plane maximum, the ratio is simple and it becomes like all other A&A units which can only fire at 1 unit per roll.

[Imperious Leader]

you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

i was reading the results incorrectly. I don’t use the calculators in general. I was looking at average IPC loss and i added in 3 BB per side, not just win %.

Well even if Cruisers are 9 IPC and Destroyers are 8, it just proves it cant be balanced by cost.

Which brings us back to the original point, that you must give the CA another value. Sims do not solve all problems.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

i was reading the results incorrectly. I don’t use the calculators in general. I was looking at average IPC loss and i added in 3 BB per side, not just win %.

Well even if Cruisers are 9 IPC and Destroyers are 8, it just proves it cant be balanced by cost.

Which brings us back to the original point, that you must give the CA another value. Sims do not solve all problems.

We both agree that Cruiser can’t be at 9 IPCs vs DDs at 8. Cruiser becomes too Over Powered.
We both agree that Cruiser at 10 are not 50%-50% with DDs at 8 IPCs and that DDs have a slightly better hand.

But how this 2 statements can prove or disprove that DD and Cruiser can’t be balanced by cost?

And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

When you say “you must give the CA another value…”, you thought “…than 10 IPCs”? Is it right?

[Imperious Leader]

And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

That means to prove the Cruiser cost changes at either 12, 11, 10 , or 9 does not balance it with Destroyer based on combat sims. Thats why you need the first solution i offered, which is to give it a special value. So no more combat sims or %… they don’t work here.

Do you understand?

[Yavid]

@Imperious:

And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

That means to prove the Cruiser cost changes at either 12, 11, 10 , or 9 does not balance it with Destroyer based on combat sims. Thats why you need the first solution i offered, which is to give it a special value. So no more combat sims or %… they don’t work here.

Do you understand?

has anyone brought up the idea that destroyers are the ones that are to powerful and maybe they are the ones that need adjusting? Think about IPC for IPC destroyers are better than everything else.

[Imperious Leader]

Yes that was done before. Issue is the DD has alot of special abilities that cant be solved with battle sims. Of course, if he could not stop subs, negate the first strike of subs and just rolled at 2 at SB, we could compare BB, CA, and DD.

If the DD was reduced in cost, the fight of 8 subs attacking against 7 DD gives the subs advantage, reverse gives the DD advantage. So again we are not about to make the DD 7 IPC, or nobody buys subs anymore.

I think the cruiser problem is possibly solved by making it a 4-3-2-12 ( one hit unit), or alternatively, if the Cruiser is fighting any smaller ship, it attacks at +1 ( only against DD, CV, SS)

[Amon-Sul]

@Yavid:

@Imperious:

And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

That means to prove the Cruiser cost changes at either 12, 11, 10 , or 9 does not balance it with Destroyer based on combat sims. Thats why you need the first solution i offered, which is to give it a special value. So no more combat sims or %… they don’t work here.

Do you understand?

has anyone brought up the idea that destroyers are the ones that are to powerful and maybe they are the ones that need adjusting? Think about IPC for IPC destroyers are better than everything else.

subs and ACs are better sometimes.

cruisers and bats are those that should be changed/improved.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

I think the cruiser problem is possibly solved by making it a 4-3-2-12 ( one hit unit), or alternatively, if the Cruiser is fighting any smaller ship, it attacks at +1 ( only against DD, CV, SS)

If we open this Pandora’s Box then:
Revised Cruiser A4D4M2C12, 1 hit, shore bombardment 1@4

It is the price to have a competitive unit but still be weaker than DD or BB.
Of course, this assumption is based on the % survival in BattleCalc.

About giving a bonus toward enemy’s unit, it adds a lot of problems against multi-ships fleet. This need to be solved.

I’ve summarized many options for cruiser here, but your idea need more tuning before I put it there:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32165.msg1236708#msg1236708

[Angel]

Here are my House Rules Naval unit stats:
Unit Cost A D M Special ability
DD 8 2 2 2 ASW
LCV 10 0 1 2 Can carry 1 FTR or 1 Tac Bomb
HC 12 3 3 3 Offshore Bomb @3, Move 4 spaces with NB boost during the NC Phase only
BC 15 4 3 2 Paired with BB def on @4, AA built in 1xd6 @1
CV 16 0 2 2 Can carry 2x FTR or Tac Bomb
BB 20 4 4 2 Can absorb 1 enemy hit, Offshore Bomb @4 and AA built in 2xd6 @1 per round

What you think about HC (Heavy cruiser) and BC (Battlecruiser) compared with other units?

[General 6 Stars]

@angel said in Real value of units:

Here are my House Rules Naval unit stats:
Unit Cost A D M Special ability
DD 8 2 2 2 ASW
LCV 10 0 1 2 Can carry 1 FTR or 1 Tac Bomb
HC 12 3 3 3 Offshore Bomb @3, Move 4 spaces with NB boost during the NC Phase only
BC 15 4 3 2 Paired with BB def on @4, AA built in 1xd6 @1
CV 16 0 2 2 Can carry 2x FTR or Tac Bomb
BB 20 4 4 2 Can absorb 1 enemy hit, Offshore Bomb @4 and AA built in 2xd6 @1 per round

What you think about HC (Heavy cruiser) and BC (Battlecruiser) compared with other units?

No regular cruiser ? Just heavy and battle Cruisers ?
4 move HC ? Think not

So your 2 ship aa can also hit planes same time as there normal hit ? You get 2 hits ?
BB aa to strong. But waiting on your aa kill rule with normal roll.

[Angel]

@general-6-stars A&A game cruisers classes are actually Heavy cruisers. It can be added Light cruiser too with following stats: cost 9 or10 /A2/D2/M3 and no special abilities. AAA hits with not normal hit @4 but 2xdices only at 1 .

[General 6 Stars]

@angel said in Real value of units:

@general-6-stars A&A game cruisers classes are actually Heavy cruisers1d6 . It can be added Light cruiser too with following stats: cost 9 or10 /A2/D2/M3 and no special abilities. AAA hits with not normal hit @4 but 2xdices only at 1 .

No. When you roll for BB. You roll 1d6 dice for Normal roll @4. Then at same time you roll 2 D6 @1 for AA ?

[Angel]

@general-6-stars Normal roll its only against enemy ships or shore bombardment, against air units you roll 2xD6 @1. AAA phase is at begining of the combat round. I am thinking to add AAA to Heavy cruiser too but only for one round, BC 2 rounds and BB 3 rounds of combat.

[General 6 Stars]

So as the BB I can hit a ship and kill 2 planes in one round of combat. To strong

[General 6 Stars]

If u want I can post what I would use as values in morning but up to you.

[Angel]

@general-6-stars ya there is a possibility, but imagine if 2 BB are attacked by 6 planes. They can be destroyed so easy. Capital ships had a lot of AAA guns on deck. Yamato and Musashi were hit with over 6 dive bombs and 11 torpedos before they sunk. Yamato destroyed 76 enemy planes before it sunk. Sure, post it, its forum i want to see how other ppl think.

[General 6 Stars]

Ya but 99 percent of battleships weren’t the Yamato.

Ok good luck