The following are my rules for Submarine Warfare (SW) and Convoy Disruption for the AA50 game:
Axis and Allies naval warfare rules model surface or fleet warfare quite well , but they do not represent submarine warfare (SW) well. A submarine's best defense is not its guns but the ability to hide and not be seen before or after an attack. SW is a series of battles between individual units or small groups of units. These rules are and attempt to model these two facets of SW.
General:
These rules for SW apply only when all of the attacking or defending units in a sea zone are submarines. If there are any surface ships friendly to a submarine in the sea zone, then Fleet Rules (normal Axis and Allies rules) apply.
Offense:
Submarines may enter and leave an enemy controlled sea zone without engaging in combat. The submarine owner chooses whether or not to engage in combat. A destroyer can end the movement of a submarine only if the destroyer can roll a spotting die roll of 3 or less as the sub attempts to leave the the destroyer’s sea zone. If successful, the destroyer cannot conduct any combat, it merely ends the movement of the submarine. Submarines that attack naval units do so using Fleet Rules (normal Axis and Allies rules).
Defense:
If a submarine, that is not part of a surface fleet, is attacked, it must be attacked by SW rules. SW consists of a series of individual unit attacks and ends when all attacking units have completed their attacks or all defending units have been eliminated or the attacker breaks off the attack. Unescorted submarines may be attacked by aircraft and destroyers. Attacks can only occur after a spotting die roll has been made. Destroyers and aircraft can spot submarines on a roll of 3 or less. Destroyers: If a destroyer spots a sub, then combat begins between that destroyer and sub. A destroyer hit on a 1 or 2, but on an attacking destroyer die roll of 6, the sub may escape and end the combat. Subs defend normally (hit on a 1).
**Aircraft:**When conducting a SW search, aircraft must expend 2 movement points to conduct a search in any sea zone. This means that fighters may conduct Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) only in sea zones adjacent to their base territory. Aircraft that roll a 3 or less, can make a surprise attack on a sub. Historically, aircraft would search the seas to try to find a submarine on the surface and quickly attack before the submarine could submerge. In game terms, aircraft can conduct one round of combat before the submarine can submerge and end the combat. During any round of combat, both the aircraft and the submarine may attack each other. a defending sub may choose to dive and end combat after any combat round is completed. Combined Arms: An aircraft and a destroyer can work together to attack a submarine. an aircraft that makes its spotting die roll may choose to skip its attack and instead direct a destroyer to attack the sub, This way, the destroyer can use the aircraft as a spotter and the destroyer can do the combat.
Convoy Disruption:
Convoy Disruption occurs in the Collect Income phase as per Global40.2 rules with the following exceptions. Sea zones that are susceptible to convoy disruption (historical shipping lanes) are marked with “Convoy Disruption Limits”, a C1, C2, C3, etc. This represents the maximum number of IPCs that can be destroyed from that sea zone. Land territories are also marked with “Convoy Disruption Limits”, a C1, C2, C3, etc. this is the maximum IPC loss that can accrue to that territory. Convoy disruption is determined for each sea zone first. losses should be marked on the map with a die to record the damage. After all damage has been determined, the amount that accrues to each land territory is decided by the player inflicting the losses.
Convoy Disruption Limits for the AA50 map (partial list): Sea Zones: Sz1:0 Sz2:C2 Sz3:C1 Sz4:C1 Sz5:C1 Sz6:C1 Sz7:C1 Sz8:C4 Sz9:C1 Sz10:C3 Sz11:0 Sz12:C1 Sz13:C1
The logic behind these numbers is that more highly travelled shipping lanes can have higher Convoy Disruption Limits than less travelled routes. Territories: Archangel:C1 Norway:C1 England:C8 NWEurope:0 Germany:C1 France:C2 E.Canada:C1 E.US:C4 Morocco:0
The logic for assigning maximum land losses is that territories that are highly dependent on the import of raw materials and the export of finished products are highly susceptible, like England and Japan. Territories that transport most of their raw materials and finished goods by land are much less susceptible, like Germany and the US. Many small territories like Morocco and NW Europe have no susceptibility at all. Territories that are raw material producers , like Borneo and the East Indies, are susceptible 100% loss.
English Susceptibility:
The Germans correctly deduced that England needed 60 million tons of imports annually to survive. This made England uniquely vulnerable to submarine warfare. A loss of the maximum amount possible to convoy disruption would mean not only economic collapse, but also starvation. No democracy can continue a war in the face of even small-scale starvation, so the following rule applies to England only. If England ever sustains the maximum amount of IPC loss (8 IPC) due to convoy Disruption, then England must sue for peace immediately. England, and the British empire, is out of the game. All English territories become neutral.
After Action Report (the results of one game of play testing):
As the German player, I purchased 2 subs per turn for the first 5 turns of a game. England destroyed about 2 subs per turn throughout the game. I never managed to get even 3 subs in position around England at any time during the game. A mathematical review of these rules show that Germany needs at least 4 subs in position around England to have even a small, 2% chance, of knocking England out of the war. They need 6 subs to have a reasonable, 30% chance, of knocking England out. Furthermore, German losses in submarine IPC value exceeded English IPC losses in units and Economic Disruption. My original rules had aircraft spotting on a die roll of 4 or less. This was changed to try to balance English and German losses.
The original rules said that SW attacks should be done in random order. This was time consuming and everybody hated it. Don’t try it. Attacker picks the attack order.
We forgot to do the 2 movement point expenditure for planes doing a search pattern every single time. We are just so used to fighters flying out 2 and back 2 spaces that we never did a search pattern expenditure. You decide if you like that rule.
The Big Question: Was it fun?
My best answer is “It depends”. I like variety in my games. I like technology, national advantages, event cards, and all other sources of variation in the game. I enjoyed this game because it was different. SW opens up an entirely new front in the war. England could no longer just sit back comfortably and just build up a larger and larger invasion force.
On the other hand, my opponent likes Axis and Allies as a chess game to be played over and over without variation in order to perfect his timing and strategy. He likes low luck and even extra low luck. He hated this houses rule. It spoiled his plans for Operation Overlord and changed all of his timing. SW rules and a maximum German effort to knock England out of the war would change the main focus of the war from the east front in Russia to the North Atlantic. That makes the game feel entirely different.
I would love to hear about other peoples' opinions and especially their experiences using these rules.
I may have read the first part wrong but subs with not fleets should not get attacked by subs only unless u meant there’s naval fleet with attacking subs
@gen-manstein You are correct. If all defending units are subs, then these rules apply. If the only attacking units are subs, they cannot hit because they have no spotting die roll. Therefore they cannot see the sub.
How many games did you play with this rule - only 1?
Your rule is interesting as it reflects Historical aspects - and I assume that it brings a change in Strategic Planning for UK, Germany - and most likely the Soviet Union as well.
We have play tested similar U-Boat vs. Destroyer rules which also included Air Units - and Escorts - for AA50 (using the Axis & Allies AA50 House Rules Expansion).
It brought fun and challenge on a massive scale :relaxed:
Well if your going for historic then there shouldn’t be any subs hardly left by end of 43. Don’t know what turn that is for your game.
We don’t have find the sub first in my game. Tacs/Dives ( surface subs first strike ) and destroyers get depth charge shots on any sub diving and/or can hit on surface subs too.
If you play either scenario you have to find the balance of how many subs in the Atlantic on setup. Like we have 12 German subs in the Atlantic and 4 at home. This forces the allies to buy Destroyers and Tacs on first few turns and gives Germany some time to get going in Europe.
IF we went with find sub first this would change a lot of things in game early.
Also if UK gets there NA Sub Hunters there tac/dives are +1 on attack on first strike only on surfaced subs.
So basically if your attack dice hits are ave you can put pressure on Germany early or if not then Germany has a bit of time on there side. If they get wacked in Atlantic then D-day coming early. Its like if hits miss you didn’t find sub kinda and if you did then you found subs in away.
If I went find sub first then I’d probably have a few less subs on setup.
As the Captain said for Strategic planning does it hurt UK by using figs first to find subs ?
Those figs are huge for defending scrambles or attacking German fleets if you have in game setup.
@gen-manstein 1) In our playtesting, we had no subs left at the end of 43 (about turn 6).
2) Your other predictions on how sub spotting would change things sounds very accurate.
3) If you have to spot subs first, then you should have fewer Subs on setup.
4) Does it hurt UK by using fighters to find subs? These fighters are huge for defending scrambles.
Answer: These rules were made for AA50 which does not have defensive scrambles. If you are playing a Europe40.2-based game, I believe that UK fighters can scramble during the German player turn and also attack during the UK player turn. You may need to do some adjusting to make these rules fit your Europe40.2 game.
Been thinking of ways to make naval warfare more enticing in AA1914.
I think it is an opportunity to give something unique to both sides, so here’s what I was thinking.
For the Entente (Allies) : Freighters. You can build 1 per 8 land IPC you command, costs 3 IPC, 2 movement speed. Every time it ends its turn either next to a neutral country worth 2 IPCs or more or in the naval base of one of your allies (not your own), you gain 2 IPCs.
For the CPs (Axis):
Restricted Sub Warfare : Active from the game’s onset, on the British turn, every CP sub in sea zones 2, 7 and 8 roll and on a 3 or less, 1 IPC is deduced from the UK’s income.
Unrestricted Sub Warfare : Active when declared by Germany. Same as above except that it applies to the UK and the US’ turns and every sub in those areas are automatic hits and 1 IPC is deduced. The Entente may remove one roll for every surface warship in those zones.
Merchant Raiders : 3 IPCs, movement speed of 2. They are stealthy and can therefore sail past blockading enemies like subs do. Every turn they end up adjacent to an enemy territory, that enemy loses 1 IPC. If the territory is worth 2 IPCs or more, the lost IPC is instead transferred to the raider’s owner. Only 1 IPC per raider may be deducted and gained this way. To sink the raider, the Entente must send ships in that area to find it. Instead of normal combat, the Entente declares which ships is on “raider” duty. He gets 1 point per ship sent and then rolls a die. If the number rolled is equal to or less than the number of ships sent, the raider is found and destroyed (so if 3 ships are sent on patrol, a roll of 3 or less destroys the ship). He gets only one roll per turn. The CPs may only have one raider per 6 land IPCs they own.
I think this could make naval combat more fun and significant in the game, especially for the CPs who could see value in trying to take command of the seas or force the Allies to chase them around. On the Entente side, it would give some countries (Italy, USA particularly) a shot at boosting their IPCs and decide if they play the long economic game at the risk of lacking armies.
Yeah we have about twenty guys in our Bay Area group. Black Elk is also in our group just haven’t met him yet lol. Hopefully soon though. A great group of guys who love A&A. :)
Ok, so I kind of think that sea units currently cost a little too much, here is my alternative pricing for AA50:
The new price is similar to the price of ships in AA50 with the Improved Shipyards Tech, then the prices get even lower if you actually have the Improved ShipYards tech.
Starting Cost … Cost with Improved ShipYards … Ship Type
The goal of this is to make the Pacific Theater more attractive to Japan and America.
I also think that transports should cost a little less, to make them cost the same as Subs.
My only issue is that with Improved Shipyards Cruisers need to cost 8.5 but i can’t decide which is closer, 8 or 9. I am also not sure if maybe BB should cost 14 instead of 15 with ImpYards.
Most of the dev team were gamers who live in Northern Illinois. After the rudiments were put in place, we had a month of online gamers testing it from the four major gaming sites that I know of: DAAK, FOE, AAMC and here. (Note: DAAK players invited were from personal invites since I lost my PW to the DAAK site, actually, it’s been so long since I’ve been there, I dont even know if it is still online or not.)
I ask WHO they were (online monikers). How many players as well? You also didn’t indicate their background (i.e. years experience, AARe experience, etc) I know most, if not all of the Enhanced players.
As far as tech goes I would propose a point system. Assign a point value to each tech. Purchase researchers as normal. Roll as normal for research, but add up the total rolls and apply them toward the selected tech. You could assign different researches to different techs, but cannot change the tech they work on once purchased. Once point value is reached, tech is gained said researchers are lost. For example.
As US I want heavy bombers eventually, they are worth 30 research, so on turn 1 I purchase one heavy bomber researcher. I roll and get a 3. Now I need 27 more research to get heavy bombers. On turn 2 I decide I want super subs, and since that tech isn’t as powerful I only need 15 research to get them. I purchase 2 researchers, both for the subs as I want to sink japan’s navy now. I roll a 2 for my heavy bomber researcher, leaving 25 left, and then roll a 4 and a 5 for my subs, leaving 6 left and with any luck on turn 3 i’ll get my super subs.
This will allow you to slowly work at a tech, rush for it, and choose to go for the good but expensive techs, or take an easier, faster, tech, or all of the above. Now all nations may buy a heavy bomber researcher turn 1, but hey there is nothing wrong with that!
Hello. I am digging up this as the tech lovers/haters discussions have started to heat up.
I re-read your thoughts and am wondering if you ever did anything more with this idea of a tech pointing system. Did you ever come up with point targets for each tech?
The neat thing about this is that it can be easily tweaked with out re-writing the whole process.
Or you could go one step further and adjust the targets by country too. For example, make super subs very low (read affordable) for Russian super subs or something like that, or even harder for the wealthy countries (like extra points for USA for Long Range)
just have defenders fire first in every round and remove loses then attackers fire.
for more realism…
You can also limit the number of units landing each round limited by the IPC value… so in france you can land 6 units 1st round, 12 second, 18 third.
The attackers cant get all the pieces on the beach in one load.
also cost the attacking player one IPC for each land unit used for this purpose. ( this is not a picnic son)
Another thing is to roll a die for sea conditions. 1-3 you can land, 4-6 you cant. Its not like "hey lets invade today… hows the weather?.. why do you ask?.. isn’t it enough that we just decide we are gonna land 1 million men today with no care in the world?.. To me this is asinine that they don’t have something in the rules to cover this.
