Another dimension - Defender Retreats

[Adalwolf]

I have always found it odd that you can not voluntarily retreat your units, except for the attacker in A&A type games. To think one can not strategically retreat on defense in battles does not make sense. I think Global War could change this paradigm and add a retreat section to the rules.

Has anybody come up with a rule set that could be incorporated into the game?

The question is how to retreat? There are some units like subs that forfeit their defense roll to submerge. Something like that could work along with some sort of penalties, i.e. forced attrition rolls for the defender. I like the way GMT incorporates retreat rules in their Pax Romana if anyone has ever played that.

Some ideas, Pre-Battle Withdrawal, Retreats during battle, first turn, second, etc. Penalties, attrition loses. Where you can retreat, I.e. not in mountain territories, possible penalties. How many sea and land zones one can retreat too. If there were options, how the game would change.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[General 6 Stars]

@manincellv said in Another dimension - Defender Retreats:

I have always found it odd that you can not voluntarily retreat your units, except for the attacker in A&A type games. To think one can not strategically retreat on defense in battles does not make sense. I think Global War could change this paradigm and add a retreat section to the rules.

Has anybody come up with a rule set that could be incorporated into the game?

The question is how to retreat? There are some units like subs that forfeit their defense roll to submerge. Something like that could work along with some sort of penalties, i.e. forced attrition rolls for the defender. I like the way GMT incorporates retreat rules in their Pax Romana if anyone has ever played that.

Some ideas, Pre-Battle Withdrawal, Retreats during battle, first turn, second, etc. Penalties, attrition loses. Where you can retreat, I.e. not in mountain territories, possible penalties. How many sea and land zones one can retreat too. If there were options, how the game would change.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Well for what its worth I’ve played automatic retreats in my games. As of right now in my game we do have all defending planes can retreat and attacking planes after any round of combat after the first round. Keep in mind my planes are dog fighting every round of combat plus certain ships have plane aa maybe hits going on same time for all combat rounds.

With auto retreats I play with if you roll a certain die number during a combat round for that piece it needs to retreat after its roll. This for the attacker and defender.
So say for any rolls of a 12 in combat, that piece needs to retreat.
Sample.
3 Inf 2 Art 1 tank.
So 3 Inf roll a 2, 5, 12. You get 1 hit, 2 misses and 1 Inf must retreat based on 12 roll.
2 Art roll a 4, 11. 1 hit no retreats.
1 tank rolls a 12. Miss and must retreat.
You can retreat to any territory so this way if you have to retreat you can go to another territory with pieces or a plan area or put all retreating pieces in same zone. But cannot retreat to another territory already in combat.

This will make the game go a bit longer in smaller battles but not as much as you would think.
If you took those 6 pieces above and rolled 6 d12 die after a round of battle then it takes to long and you would need to roll separate again. Besides you would want to see what needs to retreat while your doing combat.

You also have to decide if you are going to give the defender a full retreat option based on say if I have only 2 tanks and I want them to retreat and not lose them in a useless battle then can the defender get a full retreat after a certain amount of combat rounds.

I have not tried this in naval battles. I think I thought it was to strong if I remember based on smaller battles ? Maybe try it.

Maybe try for every certain number of pieces roll 1d12 for a retreat.
1-5 pieces 1 dice roll. A roll of 12, 1 piece needs to retreat. Your choice.
6-10 2 rolls of a 12 2 pieces need to retreat.
11-15 3 rolls of a 12 3 pieces need to retreat.
I like it better in combat rolls. This way you can’t pick your retreats.
Play with it. Start out slow or minor retreats to see outcomes.

You would need to test this. I’m sure somebody will have another idea.
I think this is the best KISS method.
Good luck on what you come up with.

[barnee]

@gen-manstein yea combat rolls. the wimps that roll a 12 in combat when they need a 1 to hit are losers , They run away. The badasses that get a hit keep fightin lol

There is such a thing as a strategic retreat as well. Get a hit, ok you can withdraw, No hit, commissars make you stand your ground and fight another round lol

I seen people discuss this before. Sure there’s some good ideas out there

[Noneshallpass]

Some retreat concepts are found in the Winter War expansion where ski troops in defense may retreat and in the Deutsch Afrikakorps expansion where armor units may retreat even if they are the Defender.

The desert terrain rules (1.9) also force Attacking vehicle-class units to retreat on a roll of 12.

The “Attack Weakness” Special Ability states that each KMT regular infantry and cavalry that rolls a 10 or more retreats from the battle to the zone it attacked from.

[insaneHoshi]

I think if you did wish to have such a rule, the simplest way to have it work is at the beginning of any follow up combat round, any defending unit may forgo any attacks and elect to retreat; they will still suffer attacks and casualties for that final round. During non-combat they then move to an adjacent friendly territory, if there are none, they are eliminated.

This makes it so that retreating isn’t free; there has to be some downside to it.

[General 6 Stars]

I’ve seen that rule too. Nothing like shooting them in the back.

[barnee]

@gen-manstein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_iRIcxsz0

[Trig]

@insanehoshi I agree, though I think you should retreat to a adjacent non embattled territory immediately. This would be very interesting for Blitzing, as one could retreat to get a better shot at the tanks.

[General 6 Stars]

Well my suggestion is not free either. Why would I retreat when I have a chance to die without getting off a shot. The not free for defender is he can’t retreat mostly. The randomness is based on a combinations of issues where both sides are forced to have a retreat or 2 pieces.
I’ve play tested many things so just saying. If other way works better then more than welcome to see test results.

This is an edit. I went back to double check rule. So any unit that has to retreat does not get a defending shot or the attacker does not get a attacking shot on retreating units.
Yes to nones reply with certain numbers rolled.
There is certain numbers for all countries and pro neutrals for retreats.

[insaneHoshi]

@trig I think “immediately” causes some considerations:

• you would have to consider a stack of units retreating to another territory and fighting there?
• Would they then be able to retreat again?

It would add some complexity.

[General 6 Stars]

@insanehoshi said in Another dimension - Defender Retreats:

@trig I think “immediately” causes some considerations:

• you would have to consider a stack of units retreating to another territory and fighting there?
• Would they then be able to retreat again?

It would add some complexity.

Ya but shouldn’t get to fight again after retreat.

[Imperious Leader]

@gen-manstein

Using the only AA style game that actually has used Defender Retreats ( i would say successfully since 1990) Would be The War Game: World War Two has it like this:

The attacker first declares which of his original attacking units for be used for the current round

The defender than declares which of his units want to retreat:

1. Units remaining as defenders roll as usual
2. Units retreating do not fire in the upcoming combat round

If the attacker hits units beyond those of which are staying in combat, excess hits are allocated against those retreating units.

[General 6 Stars]

@imperious-leader said in Another dimension - Defender Retreats:

@gen-manstein

Using the only AA style game that actually has used Defender Retreats ( i would say successfully since 1990) Would be The War Game: World War Two has it like this:

The attacker first declares which of his original attacking units for be used for the current round

The defender than declares which of his units want to retreat:

1. Units remaining as defenders roll as usual
2. Units retreating do not fire in the upcoming combat round

If the attacker hits units beyond those of which are staying in combat, excess hits are allocated against those retreating units.

That sounds fair.
Thanks I like that for defending planes retreating on battles.

[Trig]

@insanehoshi
It can, but I would say that immediately is better than waiting and holding to troops in limbo. They just have to retreat to a territory where a battle is not occuring. This means they could get hit by blitzes, but I think that is reasonable. I also prefer voluntary retreat as it should be an option, not a necessity, and you should pick whether to fight with your heavy hitters, or run and possibly die without taking anything with you. As an attack, it forces you to bring more force to try and decisively beat your enemy before they can run.