General 6 Stars 1941 WW2 Game

[General 6 Stars]

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@baron-Münchhausen
I think every round is to strong. They only had 1 torpedo or bomb. Some 2 but once they drop it based on turn one where they ain’t gonna wait then just guns AD

From my tests with smaller scale board game, not an issue.

Also, I tend to give capacities according to a season time frame of many sorties. Each combat round, can be seen as a whole week or 2 weeks of combat. So there is many loading ordnance lift-off, landing, reloading.

So, a double hit from a DF bonus roll is seen, on my behalf, as the way you describe. In a week, both ground and dofgfight occur and TcB squadrons won both.

Bottom quote here

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Another thing thinking of is now with this the Inf is not that strong against Figs.
I can see the Fig going down to AD@4 because if you have figs in a battle the Inf is taken as the casualty first and by the time Fig attack ground the Inf will be gone and now fig is were I feel it should be. But when we tested this fig AD@4 it was to weak according to the guys play Pacific. But also some said a fig shouldn’t get to kill a BB. BB would get normal hit and ship aa @1. So now that makes it better for ship defense.

I agree with the Pacific guys within the usual Japanese set up with a lot of Fighters. It becomes a big drop of firepower if there is no additional Fg unit placed on the starting setup.

After 2 gametests, I revised all this by giving 1 Fg for each 2 Fgs or 1 TcB for each 2 TcB in the setup.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN

From an older post I wrote about the lesson learns from Moscow air battle.
Do you agree with me on the bolded sentence?

There is two other factors to mitigate the Air dominance:
AAA cost and soaking capacity.
Air retreat, especially for aircraft on defense.

[General 6 Stars]

What you mean by mitigate ?

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN
Reducing the impact of Fighter dominance over defending aircraft, for instance.

[General 6 Stars]

Depends on how many figs Russia has.

[barnee]

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

What you mean by mitigate ?

Flatten the curve ?

Sorry I’ll go away : )

[General 6 Stars]

Help me barnee !!! Lol
You got AAA guns that shoot curves too ? !!!

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Depends on how many figs Russia has.
The AAA gun helps Russia but as I mentioned depends on figs. I have more figs in Russia and from LL chart plus 1 but 2 turn one so I can intercept German bombers.

IMO, allowing AAA to be use as some kind of shield (can be taken as casualty instead of aircraft) is a way to boost the strength of defending aircraft in numerical inferiority.

For example, if each AAA @2 1 roll on each aircraft max., 1 hit Cost 5 are somehow split in half.
You get 1 AAA, 1 hit, A0 D0 1 first strike roll @1 only in opening round but up to 2 roll can be assigned on each incoming aircraft for 3 IPCs (or even 2 IPCs).

If there is 2 Fg or more against 1 AAA, each plane are against 1 roll 1/12.
But, if there is at least two AAA in a given territory, each plane must face 2 rolls @1.

From a statistical POV, it is mostly the same: 1 @2 on 1 plane or 2@1 on 1 plane. 2/12 = 16.7% compared to 23/144 = 16% (1/12 * 1/12 = 1/144 hit twice but 1 shot down and 1/12* 11/12 + 11/12 * 1/12 = 22/144 hit once)
So, it can be simplified: if there is at least two AAA in a given territory, each plane must face 1 roll @2
AAA:1 hit, A0 D0 1 first strike roll @1 only in opening round but, there is 2 AAA or more, @2 roll is assigned on each incoming aircraft for 3 IPCs (or even 2 IPCs)

So, for a given Fighter AD@4 C6, hit allocated on AAA or aircraft (owner’s choice) first, if any available.
If there is air dominance, like 2 attacking Fg for 1 defending aircraft, for example, defender might use AAA unit as casualty instead of a precious Fighter or worse a Tactical Bomber.

From a balance POV, if Fighter cost 6, then each AAA A0 D0 @1FS, 1 hit might only cost 2 IPCs. If you compare such 3 AAA (6 IPCs) vs 1 Fighter (6 IPCs) which is far more versatile for all attack, defense, target and mobility. The main value of such unit would be the defensive capacity, but still a limited one.

[barnee]

@SS-GEN

heh heh

[General 6 Stars]

@barnee said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN

heh heh

Ha ha a side wider !!!
Nothing like having your right flank defended.

[General 6 Stars]

Well could have just in
Capitals AAA D@3 each plane
But then this would be to strong against stg bombers only on SBR.
What’s nice in my game is theres a bunch of SBR going all over.

Another question is did Tac/Dive bombers really just go after AAA guns ? If not That would help defender too.
We do have in game if the Tac/Dive seeked out the AAA gun only it couldn’t continue after first round fs.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Well could have just in
Capitals AAA D@3 each plane

This solution works only for the main Moscow battle.

If there is other hot spots outside, like in mainland Asia this rule would not apply.
However, if absolutely needed to balance massive aircraft combat, it can become a special rule (for Moscow or UK (Sea Lion) or Berlin or Japan, mostly) if there is 3 AAA in a Capital city, AAA defend once @3 First strike against each incoming aircraft.

I’m just toying around with this challenge of Air Dominance, to develop a better concept. This situation at a smaller scale happens early in (AA50, 1942.2) games with Cairo and Chinese Flying tigers.

As you know, all my game played with TcB picking ground/naval target and Fg shooting aircraft first.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Well could have just in
Capitals AAA D@3 each plane
But then this would be to strong against stg bombers only on SBR.
What’s nice in my game is theres a bunch of SBR going all over.

Another question is did Tac/Dive bombers really just go after AAA guns ? If not That would help defender too.
We do have in game if the Tac/Dive seeked out the AAA gun only it couldn’t continue after first round fs.

On SBR, you can just specify that @3 AAA rule apply only for general combat.

In your recent rules, TcB can pick target after first round?
In my games, AAA roll each combat round. So it is a different context.

[General 6 Stars]

Right. I get Moscow only seems to be the German air dominate and Calcutta can be but in my game could cost Japan dearly.

I’ll have to see what group thinks of aaa gun stronger just in Moscow. But last game even with Ger 23 planes Moscow had a chance to hold. Less German tanks. Was easier to get through fodder quicker for Russia and then plane casualties for Germany.

[General 6 Stars]

1 guy in group likes the new fig value
I can see 3 places where this new fig value will happen mostly.

1. Capital defense
2. Victory city defense
3. Big naval fleets
   And of course some smaller scale battles for maybe a block or a chance to kill a few figs for either side

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Right. I get Moscow only seems to be the German air dominate and Calcutta can be but in my game could cost Japan dearly.

I’ll have to see what group thinks of aaa gun stronger just in Moscow. But last game even with Ger 23 planes Moscow had a chance to hold. Less German tanks. Was easier to get through fodder quicker for Russia and then plane casualties for Germany.

I think that kind of air and ground combat should be experimented a bit with a few mock dice battles. It very much increase the randomness.

It makes a different battle whether Fighter get a bonus dogfight kill or hit enemy’s aircraft first.

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

1 guy in group likes the new fig value
I can see 3 places where this new fig value will happen mostly.

1. **Capital defense
2. Victory city defense
3. Big naval fleets**
   And of course some smaller scale battles for maybe a block or a chance to kill a few figs for either side

I agree on these 3 main spots.

If Fighter are C6 and A4 D4, it implies there gonna be more air units in these battles.

[General 6 Stars]

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Right. I get Moscow only seems to be the German air dominate and Calcutta can be but in my game could cost Japan dearly.

I’ll have to see what group thinks of aaa gun stronger just in Moscow. But last game even with Ger 23 planes Moscow had a chance to hold. Less German tanks. Was easier to get through fodder quicker for Russia and then plane casualties for Germany.

I think that kind of air and ground combat should be experimented a bit with a few mock dice battles. It very much increase the randomness.

It makes a different battle whether Fighter get a bonus dogfight kill or hit enemy’s aircraft first.

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

1 guy in group likes the new fig value
I can see 3 places where this new fig value will happen mostly.

1. **Capital defense
2. Victory city defense
3. Big naval fleets**
   And of course some smaller scale battles for maybe a block or a chance to kill a few figs for either side
   I agree on these 3 main spots.

If Fighter are C6 and A4 D4, it implies there gonna be more air units in these battles.

That’s some serious testing for that. Ya I’ll just keep testing mock battles and if I get planes on planes battles in a game now I’ll roll out the new fig rule AD@5 hit plane first to see how they turn out and keep a record and notes on it.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Inf : C3 A2-3* D4 M1
Para : C3 A2-3* D4 M1 1st round only A3-4*
Elite : C3 A4-5* D2 M1 Can only build 2 or 1 -1 with a para.
Mech : C4 A2 D4 M2 Can blitz. Can tow art, AA gun & rockets non combat only.
Art : C4 A4 D4 M1-2 * boosts Inf +1 on attacks.
SPA : C5 A4 D4 M2 Can blitz. Hit goes toward a motorized unit.
Tank : C6 A6 D6 M2 Can blitz.

Fig : C8 A5 D5 M5 + if plane present and roll is a 5 or less, hit plane.
N. Fig : C8 A5 D5 M4 + if plane present and roll is a 5 or less, hit plane.
Tac : C8 A5 D5 M5 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too. A roll of 3 or less can pick target. Can FS surfaced subs.
N. Dive : C8 A5 D5 M4 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too. A roll of 3 or less can pick target. Can FS surfaced subs.
Stg B.: C8 A3@3 D2 M6 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too. One round combat only.
H Bom. : C10 A4@3 D3 M7 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too. One round of combat only.
Air T. : C10 A0 D0 M5 Can transport Para & Elites in combat only. 2 max. Non combat can transport inf, art & aa guns. 2 max.
All A & D planes can retreat after first round of combat and any round after that.
Figs and Tacs cannot land on carriers.
Naval planes can land on carriers only and ground.
The bonus plane kills do happen in both ground and naval battles.

BB : C14 A8 D8 M2 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus AA plane kill too. Shore shot @4. 2 hit. Dam A6 D6 No shore shot. 1D6 IPCs to repair.
CR : C9 A6 D6 M3 + if roll is 2 or less get a bonus AA plane kill too. Shore shot @3.
DD : C6 A3 D3 M2 Blocks subs movement 1-1. Depth Charge @3.
SS : C7 A5 D2 M2 Can dive after any FS Tac/Dive bomber attacks even with destroyers present. Then DD depth attack.
TR : C7 A0 D1 M2 Defends @1 against planes only if not taken as a casualty or trying to escape.
AC : C12 A0 D4 M2 Defends against planes only. Dam D@3. 1 plane only. 2 hits.
EC : C7 A0 D2 M2 Defends against planes only. 1 plane only.

I bolded and italized the changes from previous version.
Screening into your units cost structure, pretty good and well dispersed in the spectrum:
Land: 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 / air: 8 - 10 / naval: 6 - 7 - 9 - 12 -14.
I pretty like that all main aircraft are all at 8 IPCs.

With these three rules, I believe you might add a fourth to increase a few minor dogfight in land combat:
All A & D planes can retreat after first round of combat and any round after that.
Figs and Tacs cannot land on carriers.
Naval planes can land on carriers only and ground.
Up to two Figs, Tacs or Naval planes can land on a just conquered territory or islands as long as the can pay “2 additional moves” to stay and land.
Why 2? It makes sure there is no outstretched range from far away aircraft, that way you cannot bring aircraft which assumed to conquer the land or island (kind of kamikaze aircraft, which are usually forbidden when judging combat move allowance).

2 aircraft is not that much, and for islands it acts like airfields created mostly on the spot after capture, for instance Handerson field on Guadalcanal (this is not a sophisticate Air Base).

[General 6 Stars]

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Inf : C3 A2-3* D4 M1
Para : C3 A2-3* D4 M1 1st round only A3-4*
Elite : C3 A4-5* D2 M1 Can only build 2 or 1 -1 with a para.
Mech : C4 A2 D4 M2 Can blitz. Can tow art, AA gun & rockets non combat only.
Art : C4 A4 D4 M1-2 * boosts Inf +1 on attacks.
SPA : C5 A4 D4 M2 Can blitz. Hit goes toward a motorized unit.
Tank : C6 A6 D6 M2 Can blitz.

Fig : C8 A5 D5 M5 + if plane present and roll is a 5 or less hit plane.
N. Fig : C8 A5 D5 M4 + if plane present and roll is a 5 or less hit plane.
Tac : C8 A5 D5 M5 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too. A roll of 3 or less can pick target. Can FS surfaced subs.
N. Dive : C8 A5 D5 M4 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too. A roll of 3 or less can pick target. Can FS surfaced subs.
Stg B.: C8 A3@3 D2 M6 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too. One round combat only.
H Bom. : C10 A4@3 D3 M7 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too. One round of combat only.
Air T. : C10 A0 D0 M5 Can transport Para & Elites in combat only. 2 max. Non combat can transport inf, art & aa guns. 2 max.
All A & D planes can retreat after first round of combat and any round after that.
Figs and Tacs cannot land on carriers.
Naval planes can land on carriers only and ground.
The bonus plane kills do happen in both ground and naval battles.

BB : C14 A9 D9 M2 + if roll is a 1 get a bonus AA plane kill too. Shore shot @4. 2 hit. Dam A6 D6 No shore shot. 1D6 IPCs to repair.
CR : C9 A6 D6 M3 + if roll is a 2 get a bonus AA plane kill too. Shore shot @3.
DD : C6 A3 D3 M2 Blocks subs movement 1-1. Depth Charge @3.
SS : C7 A5 D2 M2 Can dive after any FS Tac/Dive bomber attacks even with destroyers present. Then DD depth attack.
TR : C7 A0 D1 M2 Defends @1 against planes only if not taken as a casualty or trying to escape.
AC : C12 A0 D4 M2 Defends against planes only. Dam D@3. 1 plane only. 2 hits.
EC : C7 A0 D2 M2 Defends against planes only. 1 plane only.

I bolded and italized the changes from previous version.
Screening into your units cost structure, pretty good and well dispersed:
Land: 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 / air: 8 - 10 / naval: 6 - 7 - 9 - 12 -14.
I pretty like that all main aircraft are all at 8 IPCs.

With these three rules, I believe you might add a fourth to increase a few minor dogfight in land combat:
All A & D planes can retreat after first round of combat and any round after that.
Figs and Tacs cannot land on carriers.
Naval planes can land on carriers only and ground.
Up to two Figs, Tacs or Naval planes can land on a just conquered territory or islands as long as the can pay “2 additional moves” to stay and land.
Why 2? It makes sure there is no outstretched range from far away aircraft, that way you cannot bring aircraft which assumed to conquer the land or island (kind of kamikaze aircraft, which are usually forbidden when judging combat move allowance).

2 aircraft is not that much, and for islands it acts like airfields (but there is not bonus move as Air Base).

3 piece value corrections based on some test game now.
BB C14 AD@8 rest the same
Tac/Dive C8 AD@6 pick target first round
AD@4 rest of rounds +1 DF bonus plane kill
SPA C5 AD@4 if roll is a 2 or less can pick a tank. No tanks other side choice of casualty.
Basically the CR @2 aa and Tac /Dive being tested.

What’s the purpose for the 2 plane landings ?
When u mean pay 2 you mean 2 move left then plane can land. It’s like fly across sz move 1 then land move 1 = move 2.
So the 2 planes can land after battle if they have 2 moves left.