Will Rockets be a gamebreaker?

[cousin_joe]

Hi guys  :-)

There’s been a lot of talk about Heavy Bombers being a gamebreaker, but the other Tech that everyone seems to be forgetting about is Rockets:

2. Rockets- Your antiaircraft guns are now rocket launchers. In addition to its normal combat function, during the strategic bombing raid step of your Conduct Combat phase each turn, each of your antiaircraft guns can make a single rocket attack against an enemy industrial complex within 3 spaces of it. This attack does 1d6 damage to that complex.

Picture this…

G1, Germany spends a mere 5 IPC on Tech (1 dice roll)
-Germany succeeds on it’s first attempt, chooses from the Land/Production tree, and gets
Rockets
-Because Rockets comes into effect immediately, their 1 AAGun is already rolling rocket attacks against Karelia on G1!!! (I think they only start with 1 AA, 2 would be even more effective)

-On G2, I’d already be buying more AAGuns and positioning them to eventually hit all 3 Russian ICs + London… that’s 4d6 IPC damage/round to the Allies!!!
-Does anyone know if Rockets work like SBR in terms of damaging IC production?  Because that would only make it more devastating to small ICs like Karelia and Caucasus
-If doing this strategy, I would probably look at buying one extra dice on G1

Overall, this strategy would be very attractive for Germany
-the 5-10IPCs invested never gets wasted.  It will eventually hit something.  And if you look at the other Techs in this tree, all of them could have some use…

Paratroopers - Dead zone exchange (1INF, 1PINF, 1BMBR vs. 1INF)
Improved Artillery - weak but definitely still helpful
Increased Factory Production - defensive in case Allies go SBR, offensive as well for new ICs
War Bonds - weak but definitely still helpful
Mechanized Infantry - Very Good for Germany.  INF get pushed up to the front much faster.

At 5-10 IPC, you’re pretty much guaranteed to get your investment back, with the potential for a HUGE return with Rockets (but also Mech infantry).  And if you do hit Rockets, there is nothing the Allies can really do about it.  Your AAGuns would be in core territories making them hard to get at, and the countries that are closest to getting at them, will already be hurting for material.  Furthermore, there is no counter to Rockets… Allies basically just have to suck up the damage or try for some economic atacks of their own.

Bottom Line: With SBR as broken as it is, I think Germany has no choice but to put a little bit into Rockets.  A large portion of games will come down to whether and when Germany gets Rockets or US gets Heavy Bombers.  Single dice rolls will basically be having HUGE effects on game outcome, and will simply overshadow any strategic maneuvering in the game.  Instead of setting up the board, you may as well take turns rolling a die, and see who gets the first 6.

To me, that is broken  :-(

[Jennifer]

It’s no more broken then rockets are in Axis and Allies Revised.

There too, you can build up enough AA Guns to fire at every complex in range doing dozen’s of D6 worth of IPC damage for 5 IPC invested.

[Black_Elk]

Yeah I’m concerned about the bombing/rocket dynamics.

I agree with your statement highlighted in red Joe. This new sbr mechanic will make the game more unpredictable in some respects, but at what cost?

Jennifer is right too about Revised. In that case people usually just play with no tech to avoid the issue. But Bombing is going to be a bigger part of this game than it was in revised, just because they’re cheaper now. And we also have the graduated tech thing now for Rockets, so whereas before it was a total gamble, here the effect is cumulative.

[Krieghund]

@cousin_joe:

Does anyone know if Rockets work like SBR in terms of damaging IC production?

Yes, they do.

@cousin_joe:

Single dice rolls will basically be having HUGE effects on game outcome, and will simply overshadow any strategic maneuvering in the game.

This is the nature of Weapons Development.  It’s an optional rule, so you don’t have to play with it if you don’t want to.  Many prefer not to, for this very reason.

Welcome, Cousin_Joe.  It’s good to “see” you again, though I’m a bit disappointed to see you joining the ranks of those declaring the game to be broken before they’ve even had a chance to play it.

@Cmdr:

It’s no more broken then rockets are in Axis and Allies Revised.

In fact, it’s less “broken” than it is in Revised.  In Revised, each bomber or rocket’s damage was limited to the IPC value of the territory, so in effect damage is limited only to the victim’s IPCs on hand, given enough attacks.

[Guest]

I disagree about rockets being as broken as you say, the odds of Germany spending one roll and getting rockets is 1/36.  That is not a significant number to worry about.  I’m personally not concerned about HB either, since techs are so random it isn’t worth building a strategy based on them IMO.  However, I am very worried about what kind of economic damage can be done even WITHOUT heavy bombers.

[italiansarecoming]

i think its more of a 1/6 lol and if u spend 30 ipcs on rockets chances r 6/6=1 you will ge rockets lol.
rockets for germany is good but really bobmers for u.s.a and rokets for gerry important thats why i like a&aE cuz no tech no gamble only armies very good except i wouldnt mind lik paying 20 ipcs for somthing upg that would b good or 30?

[Imperious Leader]

There is nothing broken about the game. It probably plays fine. If somebody gets rockets the other side can get heavy bombers and start an arms race. Whatever it takes to end the game after no more than 3-4 hours is just great.

[Sime]

@italiansarecoming:

i think its more of a 1/6 lol and if u spend 30 ipcs on rockets chances r 6/6=1 you will ge rockets lol.

No, Rakeman is right.  It’s a 1/6 chance to get some kind of weapon development, then (after you choose which set of six weapons you want to roll for - there being two charts of six weapons each) another 1/6 chance to get any specific weapon development, therefore 1/36 to get Rockets.

[Imperious Leader]

exactly.

[Guest]

@Imperious:

There is nothing broken about the game. It probably plays fine. If somebody gets rockets the other side can get heavy bombers and start an arms race. Whatever it takes to end the game after no more than 3-4 hours is just great.

I wouldn’t go THAT far, that there is NOTHING broken, but it is too early to say with certainty if anything is/isn’t at this point.

@italiansarecoming:

i think its more of a 1/6 lol and if u spend 30 ipcs on rockets chances r 6/6=1 you will ge rockets lol.
rockets for germany is good but really bobmers for u.s.a and rokets for gerry important thats why i like a&aE cuz no tech no gamble only armies very good except i wouldnt mind lik paying 20 ipcs for somthing upg that would b good or 30?

Actually, just to clarify, the odds of buying 6 die and getting a tech from it that turn is about 68%, if I calculated that right (been a few years since my Statistics classes, lol).  The odds of not getting a hit is 5/6, so 5/6^6 is .32, so subtract that from 1.00 and you got the percent chance of getting a hit (there is a way to do it by directly getting the percent of success, but that’s more difficult because getting two 6’s and getting 1 six both yield the same result… can’t remember how to do it that way).

[03321]

@Rakeman:

(there is a way to do it by directly getting the percent of success, but that’s more difficult because getting two 6’s and getting 1 six both yield the same result… can’t remember how to do it that way).

You take the chance of getting a hit on exactly that roll (meaning every roll before it missed) and add it to the chance of getting a hit on every other roll before it.  In other words:  (1/6) + (1/6)(5/6) + (1/6)(5/6)^2 + … + (1/6)*(5/6)^n where n+1 = number of rolls.

About the direct chance of getting rockets in AA50.  If you spend 5 IPC on tech in one round you will continue to roll an attempt to achieve a tech every turn thereafter.  So eventually 5 IPC will get you a tech, at which point it becomes a 1/6 chance to get rockets if that’s the tree you go into.  But yeah, on any given roll it’s 1/36.

[Lucifer]

I’m happy that tech is an optional rule in AA50. Larry said he hates tech and I certainly agree with him. Tech in Revised is definately broken, and it seems like it will be broken in AA50 also. Tech rules would need very radical modifications to be acceptable. Most lobby players never use tech, and tech is not used in most tournaments. HB will certainly be a gamebreaker in AA50 if someone
is lucky in the first few rnds of the game. Also rockets will be a gamebreaker if you get a shot with each AA gun…

The difference between tech research in A&A and WW2 was that no power produced less units because of science. It was more the opposite, even if there’s a difference from engineers who are creative enough to construct better tanks and stuff, and scientists making true innovations as jet power.

It’s not like soldiers can’t have tanks because techies spend their money in the lab trying to invent nukes  :roll:

[cousin_joe]

@Cmdr:

It’s no more broken then rockets are in Axis and Allies Revised.

There too, you can build up enough AA Guns to fire at every complex in range doing dozen’s of D6 worth of IPC damage for 5 IPC invested.

Hi Cmdr Jennifer,

I agree, Revised OOTB was broken as well with no damage caps on a territory, and techs immediately coming into effect

LHTR fixed it to some degree by capping damage at IPC value of a territory.

With that said, it’s more of a gamebreaker in AA50 because:

1. Damage is capped at double the IPC of the territory
2. There are FOUR ICs within range, rather than three
3. The risk is much lower as money spent on Tech is not lost on a failed attempt.  You basically keep getting free shots until you succeed.

[cousin_joe]

@Krieghund:

Welcome, Cousin_Joe.  It’s good to “see” you again, though I’m a bit disappointed to see you joining the ranks of those declaring the game to be broken before they’ve even had a chance to play it.

Hi Kreighund.
I love a lot of the new features.  The map looks great and I like what’s happened with territories, victory cities, and unit costs.  A lot of improvements all the way around and a great job by Mr. Harris.

For the casual player (eg. teenagers, beer & pretzel guys), I think the game with Tech as is, is fine.  However, for the competitive player (eg. online rankings, tournaments, players playing to outstrategize their opponents) the Tech system is a huge disappointment and clearly broken.

Let’s say Player A and Player B are playing against each other, and Player A, based on skill and experience is a 70-30 favourite to win the match.  Player B, playing Axis, gets Rockets for 5-10 IPC, and then suddenly he is the favourite to win the match.  Sure, some will say bad dice can affect the odds too, but not that much and rolling so few dice.

This is the nature of Weapons Development.  It’s an optional rule, so you don’t have to play with it if you don’t want to.  Many prefer not to, for this very reason.

At least we agree  :-)  However, it’s a shame that this element has to be removed for competitive play.  There are some well thought out Techs, and if balanced properly, would add a lot of depth to the game.

In fact, it’s less “broken” than it is in Revised.  In Revised, each bomber or rocket’s damage was limited to the IPC value of the territory, so in effect damage is limited only to the victim’s IPCs on hand, given enough attacks.

I don’t quite understand your response here Kreighund  :?
I thought you replied that Rocket damage works like SBR damage in terms of damaging IC production
ICs could be damaged to up to double their IPC value, although the owner of the IC has the option of how much he wants to repair if at all
Is this correct?

[cousin_joe]

@Rakeman:

I disagree about rockets being as broken as you say, the odds of Germany spending one roll and getting rockets is 1/36.  That is not a significant number to worry about.

The odds are actually much more than that Rakeman…
-Recall, if Germany spends 5IPC, it gets to keep rolling every round until they hit something
-Furthermore, I’d probably look at spending 10IPC 1st round, maybe another 5IPC 2nd round (Hitting Rockets for 15IPC is still a Gamebreaker)
-You’re getting 2-3 rolls/round now to hit your rockets
-In 3 rounds, that could be 9 rolls to hit Rockets… it’s not quite 9/36 to hit, but definitely a lot higher than 1/36.  Personally, I wouldn’t want to be Allies when it happens.

And as far as countering with HB, good luck.  Because Tech is random, and money is lost if you succeed but don’t get the tech you want, it can cost you a lot of time and money before you eventually hit.

Furthermore, the fact that you’re thinking of going for HB if the opponent gets Rockets only serves to reinforce my point about the game coming down to tech rolls rather than strategy  :-)

[Greand Stone]

In revised the only two technologies worth getting was rockets and heavy bombers.  All other was not worth the cost.

I’ve played with a house rule in revised: roll 2 dices. If they are alike you get that technology. Ie 1/6 probability each turn to get a random technology. And from my experience this rule (which is very similar to the AA50 ones) adds a lot of fun and the probability for it having an devestating effect is actually very very small.

The reason is, yes germany can get rockets for a cheap price, but

1. they are in no way garanteed to get rockets
2. it will probably take some time to get it.
3. Technology is equaly good for all nations.
4. Rockets is a vell tested technology and HB is concidered more gamebreaking.

I’m actually more conserned about ‘paratroopers’. It may prove very fun, but in some spesific situations it might be realy harsh. (like being able to take large portion of the pacific without a single transporter or escort for that transporter).
Germany in a lucky turn gets paratroopers & UK have placed very few land units in UK cuz Germany has no transporter. Woops walla, UK falls.

[Krieghund]

@cousin_joe:

For the casual player (eg. teenagers, beer & pretzel guys), I think the game with Tech as is, is fine.  However, for the competitive player (eg. online rankings, tournaments, players playing to outstrategize their opponents) the Tech system is a huge disappointment and clearly broken.

Let’s say Player A and Player B are playing against each other, and Player A, based on skill and experience is a 70-30 favourite to win the match.  Player B, playing Axis, gets Rockets for 5-10 IPC, and then suddenly he is the favourite to win the match.  Sure, some will say bad dice can affect the odds too, but not that much and rolling so few dice.

This is the nature of Weapons Development.  It’s an optional rule, so you don’t have to play with it if you don’t want to.  Many prefer not to, for this very reason.

At least we agree  :-)  However, it’s a shame that this element has to be removed for competitive play.  There are some well thought out Techs, and if balanced properly, would add a lot of depth to the game.

My understanding is that techs aren’t used in most competitive games.  If they are, both players know the risks.

Frankly, I find the viewpoint of wanting to have techs, but not wanting them to affect the game outcome too much, amusing.  The whole point of military technological research is to gain an advantage over the enemy, and hopefully a significant one.  If that advantage is relatively small, the research isn’t really worth the expense.  I’m not saying that techs should be game-breakers, just that they shouldn’t be nerfed to the point where they’re not worth trying for.

@cousin_joe:

In fact, it’s less “broken” than it is in Revised.  In Revised, each bomber or rocket’s damage was limited to the IPC value of the territory, so in effect damage is limited only to the victim’s IPCs on hand, given enough attacks.

I don’t quite understand your response here Kreighund  :?
I thought you replied that Rocket damage works like SBR damage in terms of damaging IC production
ICs could be damaged to up to double their IPC value, although the owner of the IC has the option of how much he wants to repair if at all
Is this correct?

Yes, that’s correct.  I was talking about how it works in Revised.  The total SBR damage in a round in AA50 is limited to twice the territory’s IPC value, whereas in Revised it’s limited to the total IPCs on hand.

[Guest]

Personally, I like the 4:2 tech rule.  It retains chance (the tech will either cost 20 OR 30 IPC, be implemented this round OR next) but it requires both a serious investment (20 IPC as opposed to a crapshot a turn for 5 IPC) and has the guarantee that you WILL get the tech you want within 2 rounds.

The problem with tech to me is the law of large numbers… if you roll 100 dice (as you will over the course of the game’s combat), the odds are you will get near equal hits for every number.  If you roll a few die for tech, it can go either way (extremely good luck, extremely poor luck, and anything in between).  As for techs, you are allowing the rolling of relatively few die to make a HUGE impact on the game.  I like the idea of technology and I think AA50 has technology the best of any A&A official game yet, but I still think it has a ways to go…

[shermantank]

With the other techs available in the Anniversary game, rockets by themselves will not change the game. However, rockets with heavy bombers and another technology could change the game into your favor.

[italiansarecoming]

i chose undecided because it is depending what are the objectives of germany and other countries stupid ehough to buy rockets.
really germany needs rockets and maybe russia if russia in military strenght is = more or barely less and germany has trouble else were (not afrca unless germany sent many units there)
so rockets can b if ur objective/strategy uses rockets which is good but also bad