Just a basic question. Does this move still work if its a submarine?
The enemy fleet does not have a destroyer
No, not really.
A sub (presumably from a bid?) could still cause some minor problems to Japan’s options, but not in the same way as a surface warship would. The most important part of the Sneaky Karl is disallowing the Japanese transports from loading, which only happens if the sea zone is made hostile. Only surface warships make the sea zone hostile.
We had some discussion in the Q&A recently about the presence of a sub that you might want to check out. See my question on September 5, and especially the answers from Panther and Krieghund who are “Official Answers” guys.
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/18412/global-2nd-edition-q-a-aag40-2
@Tizkit
Its from the europe side of the board. Germany going for a sealion with a russian sub sharing a space. But it makes sense that it doesnt work
The entire point of The Sneaky Carl is to screw Japan over it when it comes to loading transports.
@Caesar-Seriona it does the same thing for a germany player going for sealion doesnt it? If they arent at war with the USSR but declare it that turn then it works the same way right?
The rules would work the same way in general, but the dynamic of “Japan at Peace” + “UK enters SZ to share it during Peace” + “ANZAC declares war on its turn” wont.
If the UK declares war, it cant “enter at peace” during NCM. It would have to attack the fleet, not join it “at peace”.
@Swoldier What is does it because UK and Japan can share sea zones, it is possible to move UK ships into sea zones where you think Japan is going to load or unload units and then you park your ship in it. Then ANZAC declares war on Japan thus dragging UK into the fight and now Japanese shared Sea Zones are hostile thus on Japans turn, they now can’t load/unload due to the Sea Zone being hostile so they either have to leave or destroy the British ship. This is a good move is Japan is waiting to take Dutch money or Philli on J2 or J3.
@Caesar-Seriona i understand what the sneaky karl is, i was just wondering if the same stratagy would work but for a soviet sub blocking german transport loading for a sealion. I chose to call jt the same thing because of the original.
@Swoldier No because if USSR is occupying a joint zone with Germany. On Germany’s turn, he could load and then declare war to bypass it hence why it’s not wise to use the cruiser to chase the transport but just move it one space out to block a possible attack.
@Swoldier said in The Sneaky Carl:
@Caesar-Seriona i understand what the sneaky karl is, i was just wondering if the same stratagy would work but for a soviet sub blocking german transport loading for a sealion. I chose to call jt the same thing because of the original.
Even if Germany gave permission for the USSR Cruiser to pass Denmark (or UK took Denmark round 1) for there to be a problem for Sea Lion it would still require Germany to leave the transports outside of SZ112 and USSR to put the Cruiser in SZ112 with troops needing to load there or in SZ113.
So there are potential issues - more likely UK leaving a DD in SZ112 with the invasion fleet in SZ113. Not really a sneaky Karl kind of thing.
@simon33 i get it. It was primaily about the sub but germany can load then declare war i thought that since it happened on the same turn the sub in the zone would make it hostile.
@Swoldier but it still seems off about being able to load a transport then declare war on russia. Because you load and offload transports on combat and non combat phases right? So if youre attacking russia in the same combat phase then you would be at would before you load the transports wouldnt you?
Since UK starts at war with Germany, they can’t be together at peace. USSR could, but it’d have to move its CA among the german transports and afterwards, war is declared. If Germany allows this to happen, its a serious bungle, but it could work. On germany’s turn, it declares war with the CA among its stuff, it cant load.
There is an easy way around the Sneaky Karl; Leave the transports loaded, with the men at sea. It takes more planning and risk, but it prevents the bungle.
@taamvan ok. Thats all i was really asking. I figured it would work the same i just wasnt sure if it worked with the sub
@taamvan said in The Sneaky Carl:
Since UK starts at war with Germany, they can’t be together at peace. USSR could, but it’d have to move its CA among the german transports and afterwards, war is declared. If Germany allows this to happen, its a serious bungle, but it could work. On germany’s turn, it declares war with the CA among its stuff, it cant load.
There is an easy way around the Sneaky Karl; Leave the transports loaded, with the men at sea. It takes more planning and risk, but it prevents the bungle.
Actually, that wouldn’t happen because of the exception for the turn that a nation declares war. On this turn, they are in fact allowed to load. In any event, you wouldn’t want to DOW on USSR the turn you are attacking London.
Actually you are (almost) never allowed to load a transport and then declare war during the same turn.
The rulebooks clearly state, that
“War must be declared on your turn
at the beginning of the Combat Move phase, before
any combat movements are made, …”
The only exception is, as correctly pointed out by @simon33 :
" Once a state of war is entered into, all
territories and sea zones controlled by or containing
units belonging to the power or powers on which you
declared war instantly become hostile to your units,
and the normal restrictions of moving into or through
hostile spaces apply, with one exception. During
your Combat Move phase in which you entered into
a state of war, your transports that are already in sea
zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in
those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones).
In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial
sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is
declared, while the sea zone is still friendly."
However an enemy submarine never makes a seazone hostile (as @Tizkit stated above).
@Panther ok, so whats the rules then if a enemy sub is sharing a seazone with a cruiser and transports? Will the sub get a sneak attack or do the cruiser transports have a chance to move first?
The presence of an enemy submarine does not make the seazone hostile. So the “Sea units starting in hostile seazones-rules” do not apply.
But from the official FAQ we read:
Q. If some of my units begin my turn in a sea zone with enemy submarines and/or transports and I decide to attack them, can I move some or all of my units out of the sea zone in combat movement to avoid having them participate in the combat?
A. Yes. Even though the sea zone is not hostile (it contains no enemy surface warships), you can still move units from the sea zone in combat movement to escape combat if you’re attacking there. However, you must still respect the rules for moving units in the Combat Move phase to escape combat.
This means that in the situation in question, units leaving the sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack can actually end their movement in friendly zones, so transports that are leaving don’t have to participate in an amphibious assault.
In case you decide to engage the submarine (the submarine has a surprise strike as it does not face an attacking destroyer) you can do it, but every unit in that seazone that did not perform an alternative combat move will be part of the battle then.
A transport can also load to perform an amphibious assault. It needs an escort in case it unloads in a seazone that contains an enemy submarine.
These are the options. This is basically what @Tizkit offered you in his above reply.
@Panther said in The Sneaky Carl:
This means that in the situation in question, units leaving the sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack can actually end their movement in friendly zones, so transports that are leaving don’t have to participate in an amphibious assault.
Just to clarify, does this mean that:
A) Transports can load, leave the sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack, end their movement in a friendly sea zone and offload. B) Transports leaving a sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack cannot load.
C) Transports leaving a sea zone in combat movement to avoid participation in the attack may load first, but may only offload in an amphibious assault.
D) Another possible scenario I’ve overlooked?
A: No. Loading a transport during Combat Move Phase is only possible when it prepares an amphibious assault during that same turn.
B: No, They can load, but only for an amphibious assault during the same turn.
C : Almost. In case they load they must offload for an amphibious assault.
D : They can leave unloaded, too, and in that case can end their movement in a friendly sea zone.
