German AA50 -41 strategy

[variant]

timerover51, yes we know, you hate Axis. Why not just add the feature “You win” to the Allies instead of wasting all the time with putting pieces here and there. Whatever you do, your post doesn’t belong in this thread.

[Guest]

Imperious Leader is speculating on Axis strategies.  I do not see why it is inadmissable to speculate on how his strategies may be countered.  He is automatically assuming that the Italian player will do precisely as he is told.  I suspect that Imperious Leader will make sure that he controls both the German and Italian player, which defeats the whole purpose of adding Italy.

[variant]

@timerover51:

Imperious Leader is speculating on Axis strategies.  I do not see why it is inadmissable to speculate on how his strategies may be countered.  He is automatically assuming that the Italian player will do precisely as he is told.  I suspect that Imperious Leader will make sure that he controls both the German and Italian player, which defeats the whole purpose of adding Italy.

Countering is all fine. Adding stupid house rules is completely different.

[Imperious Leader]

Imperious Leader is speculating on Axis strategies.  I do not see why it is inadmissable to speculate on how his strategies may be countered.  He is automatically assuming that the Italian player will do precisely as he is told.  I suspect that Imperious Leader will make sure that he controls both the German and Italian player, which defeats the whole purpose of adding Italy.

Do you not know the German player plays first? You cant counter the opening move. It is not advisable to counter G1 if im the first player.

And i have said nothing about Italy. I am doing Germany which is called G1 for German turn 1.

Read first then comment second.

The basic idea is i am setting up Archangel to fall on G2, to protect my fleets by presenting many targets to UK forcing her to devote her 2 remaining ships and 3 planes to exchange further, and have enough to have another round against the British in Egypt (using the planes in Algeria) and as i said Archangel ( using the planes in Norway).

But for you it would be easier to just remove the axis pieces entirely and ponder how quickly that balancing act makes the game a waste of time.

For we all know the Axis must lose 100% of the time or 1) the game is not historical and 2) the outcome of an axis victory will change history and people begin to disappear… because we changed the spacetime continuum.

[Guest]

I do not recall saying anything about countering Germany’s first move.  I am fully aware that the Germans move first.  The added units go into the set up of the game.  They are there prior to any movement by Germany.  Lend-Lease purchases made in Turn 1 get delivered at the end of the Player’s turn 2.  Most of the UK naval units should be on the table, based on the relationship of forces between the Italian Navy and the Royal Navy.  Both the Royal Navy and US Navy are severely cut in all of the Axis and Allied games, except Pacific.  If they were not, Axis wins would be few and far between.

In the same way, in order to achieve that sacred objective of Play Balance, the ground forces that would have actually been present in the UK, and by now fully reequipped from the Dunkirk experience are heavily reduced, along with no allowance for the literally hundreds of shore batteries and coastal defenses erected by the British in case Sea Lion was actually tried.  Coastal Command was virtually the same size as Bomber Command, but is not reflected in the game.

As for the US Navy, it is reduced to a point where it is ludicrious, again in the name of Play Balance.

As for Italy, the following comments are made in one of your previous posts.  What do you plan on doing if the Italian player decides not to cooperate?

**2 subs in SZ-7 and fighter ( Finland ) attack Uk BB and transport (the Italian fleet will destroy the UK CA and DD off Gibraltar.

ON Italy’s turn they take Jordan with tranny landing 1 inf, 1 tank and 1 fighter against 2 infantry  ( Italian infantry in Libya move up to Egypt. ( now both sides can pass thru canal on second turn)**

And of course, if the Axis had really won WW2, I would not have been born. And many millions more would have died in the death camps and under the tender mercies of the Japanese Army. And how many individuals presently posting to the forum would have been part of those millions?

[Hobbes]

One of the key decisions on G1 will be: where to send the bomber?

1. Send it to attack Egypt, raising the odds of victory to 75%. Because if the amphibious attack by G on Egypt fails to kill the UK fighter then the G transport is automatically killed by the UK fighter during the UK’s turn before Italy’s navy can move to protect it.

2. Send it to Karelia, together with the rest of the Luftwaffe + 5 Inf and 1 Arm.

3. Use it for an attack on any of the UK fleets.

4. SBR Karelia to make Russians pay in case they want to reinforce it

[Romulus]

@timerover51:

And of course, if the Axis had really won WW2, I would not have been born. And many millions more would have died in the death camps and under the tender mercies of the Japanese Army. And how many individuals presently posting to the forum would have been part of those millions?

Without the possibility to read your rule for obtaining “Play Balance”? This is so terrible.

Timerover51, you are posting in each thread regarding Anniversary Edition, and your contribution to the discussion are “balancing rules” that results in “Allies have to win always”. This make the game impossible to play.

Maybe we are not interested in buying a game and then modify it to the point of being not possible to play. If you want to do that, do it with your own copy, win each game with Allies and have fun.

Me and my friends are used to play A&A boardgames, trying to win using brain to think to strategies and moves and not adding units at will. We like a game that is challenging to each other, with the objective of spending time together having quite same posibilities to win. We do not want to change History nor to reply the History moves per moves plying a scripted game.

Note: Edited trying to be more clear.

[Imperious Leader]

One of the key decisions on G1 will be: where to send the bomber?

1. Send it to attack Egypt, raising the odds of victory to 75%. Because if the amphibious attack by G on Egypt fails to kill the UK fighter then the G transport is automatically killed by the UK fighter during the UK’s turn before Italy’s navy can move to protect it.

2. Send it to Karelia, together with the rest of the Luftwaffe + 5 Inf and 1 Arm.

3. Use it for an attack on any of the UK fleets.

4. SBR Karelia to make Russians pay in case they want to reinforce it

I see the vital need to jump on Karelia and Egypt. If Germany goes to Egypt they need the bomber, but doing that leaves that UK BB and tranny to also take Finland and make a starter fleet.

Getting the jump on Karelia too a big hit because Norway is not connected to Karelia, so against like 5 infantry, 1 art and aa gun, Germans need most of the air force, which leaves the German subs with possible lost opportunity, and The Italian fleet is now less stable.

I think if Germany buys that bomber and hits Moscow on turn 2 w/o Soviet air units Moscow will start feeling pain with SBR. Germany should buy either a fighter or bomber on G2 and keep the pressure up i think.

[Hobbes]

@Imperious:

I see the vital need to jump on Karelia and Egypt. If Germany goes to Egypt they need the bomber, but doing that leaves that UK BB and tranny to also take Finland and make a starter fleet.

Jumping right away to Egypt on G1 might not be essential. G can use the med transport to reinforce Libya, move 1 Inf and 1 Arm to Bulg/Rom and leave the UK with a decision to make: pull back from Egypt and reinforce India against J or bring units from India to prevent Egypt from falling to the Germans/Italians?

[Greand Stone]

The russian front is quit straight forward for the first round: take as much as you can, and with a decent defence in each province the Russian having almost only infanteri cannot fight back the first round.
What to do with the two subs in the atlantic is somewhat troublesome. Those submarines are preaty toast in the UK round whatevery you do, so atleast try to attack something with them. If you take out a transport, UK has few transport available for attacking Europe.

Egypt is the painfull battle.

It is Italy which have interest in Egypt as they definitivly need the bonus IPC. Not germany.

Attacking egypt with 75% probability to win is risky, if you loose you loose a lot of stash, maybe including a bomber and a transport. Keeping a transport might prove very valueble.

The problem with Italy & Egypt is that Italy cannot afford to loose its transport. So if UK send ships into the medetarian, I would say that it might be to risky to send troops into egypt AND take out the UK ships at the same time, espesialy if UK still have a fighter in Egypt (which can kill a lone transport and maybe even a transport protected by a cruiser).

If left alone in the medeterian, Italy got quit the punch with three shorebombardment, killing 1-2 units before combat starts.
Without reinforcements in Egypt by UK, Italy can take egypt sending 3 infanteri, one artellery and one fighter. The problem is that UK gets to go first and decide what to do. Italy has to respond…

[Imperious Leader]

If Germany brings the bomber its Libya force and transport picks up tank and infantry…Egypt is gone.

Italy can take Jordan and the canal is Axis.

The problem is Egypt has that fighter, so japan must send like a cruiser to protect lone transports, and also India has no fighter, so the uk fighter in Egypt is vital.

If the game is historically scripted it must be very important to take egypt and open the way to Persia into Russia.

But the issue is the bomber is critical for getting the UK BB…so its a trade off.

[Imperious Leader]

Here is another variation of the German plan with targets of Archangel and Egypt on G1, but the odds are not really good and the pay off in terms of allied loses is reduced. Its however a better positional result.

Purchases: 30 IPC gets 5 INf, 1 fighter, 1 tank or 5 inf/3 tanks

Archangel:

2 inf from Finland
Baltic transport gets 1 tank 1 inf
3 fighters

against: 4 infantry, 1 art, 1 AA

15 vs.10 ( 7 vs. 6)

Egypt:
1 tank, 1 inf, 1 Art
plus Medd transport gets 1 tank ( france) and 1 infantry
Bomber

14 vs. 13 (6 vs. 5)

Eastern front:

Baltic states:
3 inf, 1 tank, 1 Art

East Poland:
3 tanks 2 infantry

Ukraine:
2 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Tank

Naval:

2 subs and fighter on UK BB/AP in Labrador

Baltic sub goes against UK DD in North sea.

[03321]

@Imperious:

Archangel:

2 inf from Finland
Baltic transport gets 1 tank 1 inf
3 fighters

against: 5 infantry, 1 art, 1 AA

15 vs. 12 ( 7 vs. 6)

fixed ;)

I think a very important discussion/consideration as far as whether or not G1 Egypt is worthwhile is how much long-term benefit there is to keep the German Med. trans and the bomber, as well as what drawbacks there are to waiting a turn to take it.  Without sacrificing the bomber in front of the tank for the purpose of taking egypt, there is a 60% chance of taking it on G1 with everything you can get there.  Good odds, certainly, but nothing to hang your hat on.  If you lose badly the fighter could remain to take out the German transport, or even if you kill everything in egypt but with only the bomber remaining, UK can send his India destroyer through the Suez.  Or he could crazily send his UK bomber down to sz 15 (depending on what other needs it can serve) and land in TJ, possibly shipping 1-2 units from India.  My point being that even if you take Egypt you can still lose your transport.  So, is the risk of losing your transport without even taking Egypt worth the payoff of either taking Egypt yourself on G1 or clearing it for Italy?  I dunno, but I’m tired and shouldn’t be thinking that hard right now.

[Imperious Leader]

Yes thats right. On reason why (big reason) that Egypt was not a target on the first revision. I like you like to wait one turn, but the tradeoff is the UK fighter can go to India and the transport can bring more Inf from India, which added with at least 1-2 infantry from Jordan, brings in 3-4 more units. My medd tranny is also gonna bring 2 more men, (plus the 2 from the first turn landed in Libya)…

This makes for a similar battle but of course obviously the bomber and the structure of the other air units could be better used against UK ships on turn 1 and possibly having only a one turn window to do any damage on UK naval.

Personally, i prefer getting after the UK naval and then turning on Egypt and Karelia on turn G2.

It gives Italy a safer position to start the game with all those naval units gone. Italy can possibly support an attack on Ukraine if Russians retake, using the BB for SB

Italy should really buy a Transport on I1 because she has too many good land units that will take too long to get into battle.

I think Italy sets up for Jordan/ Egypt on I2 and in the meantime hits a soviet territory, or brings her entire fleet minus cruiser to protect central medd transports to the SZ right west of Gibraltar and gives the UK player a real test of nerves seeing all those Axis warships ready to stop remaining UK naval.

[squirecam]

@timerover51:

I do not recall saying anything about countering Germany’s first move.  I am fully aware that the Germans move first.  The added units go into the set up of the game.  They are there prior to any movement by Germany.  Lend-Lease purchases made in Turn 1 get delivered at the end of the Player’s turn 2.  Most of the UK naval units should be on the table, based on the relationship of forces between the Italian Navy and the Royal Navy.  Both the Royal Navy and US Navy are severely cut in all of the Axis and Allied games, except Pacific.  If they were not, Axis wins would be few and far between.

In the same way, in order to achieve that sacred objective of Play Balance, the ground forces that would have actually been present in the UK, and by now fully reequipped from the Dunkirk experience are heavily reduced, along with no allowance for the literally hundreds of shore batteries and coastal defenses erected by the British in case Sea Lion was actually tried.  Coastal Command was virtually the same size as Bomber Command, but is not reflected in the game.

As for the US Navy, it is reduced to a point where it is ludicrious, again in the name of Play Balance.

As for Italy, the following comments are made in one of your previous posts.  What do you plan on doing if the Italian player decides not to cooperate?

**2 subs in SZ-7 and fighter ( Finland ) attack Uk BB and transport (the Italian fleet will destroy the UK CA and DD off Gibraltar.

ON Italy’s turn they take Jordan with tranny landing 1 inf, 1 tank and 1 fighter against 2 infantry  ( Italian infantry in Libya move up to Egypt. ( now both sides can pass thru canal on second turn)**

And of course, if the Axis had really won WW2, I would not have been born. And many millions more would have died in the death camps and under the tender mercies of the Japanese Army. And how many individuals presently posting to the forum would have been part of those millions?

Its really starting to grate on me. This continual theme of yours really has nothing to do with a GAME. Its a FREAKIN GAME we are playing.

If you cant discuss a GAME without seeing the need to adjust it so that the Allies always win so you “feel better”, then you probably need to leave this forum.

[Imperious Leader]

Ok guys… lets just leave this tread about strategy. Make your own or respond to others. And no more posts about what should be done to “balance” so that axis lose 100% of the time. Makes no sence in a game.

[Corbeau Blanc]

I barely can make out the territories on the pics i saw, but still seems to me that an early double punch could take out the caucasus region.

Italy 1 is in good position early on to capture the caucasus complex via amphibious assault. That’s 2 shore bombardment and infantry/arti against 3 infantry. Italy brings it’s tanks and plane in the balkans at the german frontline with Ukraine. It build a second transport and some ground troops.

Russia 1 retake caucasus, yes, but won’t be able to pop troops out of there.

Germany 1 strike along the frontline taking and massing in ukraine close to caucasus.

Italy 2 strike at caucasus again with 4 amphibious units and the tanks in range trough ukraine held by germany. This also yields 3 shore bombard.

R2 russia can maybe or maybe not take back caucasus but G2 should put a definitive nail in that coffin. If i was Russia player, i’D rather see it flagged Italian than Germany.

I am assuming:
-  caucasus worth still 4 IPC for italy

• 3 infantry are defending caucasus round 1
• Italy has 1 BB, 2 cruisers and 1 transport rnd1
• That Germany can consider an IC in balkans to pop transports and will take care of Africa from G3. France IC could be an option too since it connect to med if i see correctly

EDIT: Hrmmm, upon further inspection, i saw there is 4 infantry defending caucasus. Well, Italy could refrain from taking it rnd 1 while doing it’s work in Egypt and still set up with germans to take caucasus on rnd 2.

[Perry]

@axis_roll:

I guess I just don’t have the time for sheer speculation as A&A strategy discussions already are pretty nebulous even WHEN all the rules are known and games have been played to test these strategies.   :|

I seems you do at least have the time to post that you don’t have the time to discuss this topic further  8-) :mrgreen:

I’m really sorry Axis_roll, I just couldn’t help myself!  :-D :wink:

[Imperious Leader]

Caucasus cant be taken on turn 1 by Italy because Italy plays after the Soviets and you dont know what what are doing, plus thats not the focus of their bonus points. Look at what they do with their fleet and africa for turn 1. Likely your setting up them for turn two because they are a little far from action and UK will probably not leave Egypt…or will they?

[Lynxes]

G1 strategy ’41 scenario Axis & Allies Anniversary edition

Objective: get as many infantry as possible into Russia. Harass UK without risking too heavy losses, especially air units.

Builds: 8 inf, 1 sub.

Combat moves:
Baltic states: 1 inf from Norway, 1 inf from Northwestern Europe, 2 inf, 1 art and 2 tanks from Poland, 1 cruiser bombarding.
East Poland: 2 inf from Poland, 2 tanks from Czechoslovakia/Hungary, 2 tanks from Roumania/Bulgaria.
Ukraine: 3 inf, 1 art from Roumania/Bulgaria, 1 ftr from Poland, 1 ftr from Germany.
Egypt: 1 inf, 1 art, 1 tank from Libya, 1 inf from Morocco/algeria, 1 tank from France.
North Sea: 1 sub from Baltic Sea, 1 ftr from Norway.
Azores sz: 1 sub from Bay of Biscay, 1 ftr from Northwest Europe, 1 bmb from Germany (abort attack when sub is destroyed!).
East Canada sz: 1 sub from Bay of Biscay.

Probable results: 1-2 subs survive,  0-1 of 3 UK destroyers. In Egypt: either taken or Uk survives with ftr or ftr and tank.

Non-combat moves: 2 inf, 1 AA from Germany to France, 1 inf, 1 art from Germany to Poland (if you hit that transport in Labrador you can send one more inf to Poland). Fighters: 2 land in France, 1 in Poland, 1 in Roumania/Bulgaria. Bmb: Germany.

Placement: 8 inf in Germany, 1 sub in Baltic Sea.

Follow-up: Italy should attack vs. Egypt and put some inf in France, build an extra transport so that it can amphibious assault both in Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Turn 2 Germany buys an AA, more inf and art and another sub. From turn 3 onwards, add tanks, ftr and bmb to your inf builds of at least 6 / turn. Use your subs as casualties in conjunction with air attacks in the Atlantic, stop building them when the Royal Navy gets too powerful. In Russia, take Karelia turn 2, trade territories until your inf arrive from Germany and then put pressure vs. both Archangelsk and Caucasus. The latter should be attacked by the italians as well. If using techs, start putting 5 IPCs/turn from turn 2 on and aim for the Land/Production chart, increase this to 10 IPCs/turn if the Allies build a lot of bombers or get heavy bombers tech and stop when you get Radar or IC repair.