1941 - Allies Strategy.

Russia -

Buy Inf/Rt/Arm

You’ll probably have to fall back fairly quickly against Germany, but the Inf/Rt should be good for trading Ukr/eukr/epol/belo/kar.

If it is possible I like to take Fin and Nor with Russia in Rds 1 and 2, it really helps the Russian income.

I just retreat everything in the East and maybe put an inf or two in China starting in rd 2 or 3.  I don’t in rd 1 b/c Germany usually comes out hard for Russia.

UK -

I buy ships and air on UK 1 to be placed in Sz 8 (reinforced by US).  If your BB is sunk, buy an AC and land 1 or 2 US ftrs.  I plan on landing in Alg in Rd 2 with hopefully 4 units.  If Japan is in position to hit India in rd 2, I retreat everyting to Per.  I also bring 1 inf, 1 rt from Aus to Sz 30 (but only if safe), otherwise I sail East for Afr.

US -

I usually buy a trn, dd (or AC) and then inf/ftrs.  Back up the UK in the Altantic.  The extra ftrs or bombers are used to try and sink the Italian fleet in rd 3 or 4.

I find it isn’t always safe to buy anything for the Pac on US 1 since Japan can have a bunch of ftrs in range, so I set up the US in the Atlantic in rd 1, then decide in rd 2 or 3 how much do I need to commit to the Pac.

My overall goals are usually:
#1 Sink Ger ships (CA and trn in Sz 5) (round 1)
#2 Sink Ita fleet  (round 3 or 4)
#3 Land UK/US in Afr (round 2 and 3)
#4 Move UK to Sz 6 (rd 4 or 5)

From here you can start to reinforce northern Russia and the US either helps in Europe, keeps going to Afr ot threaten Ita, or shifts to buying stuff for the Pac.

You should assume that any good player will kill China in Japan’s 1st turn, so no figs escaping from doom or more than one last chinese inf popping at Chinghai  :| Dices can fail, but it’s very diffcult, and any J1 attacks not involving a total massacre of China is suboptimal axis play

any J1 attacks not involving a total massacre of China is suboptimal axis play

This was my thinking for a long time, but I’m not entirely convinced of it anymore. The Chinese fighter isn’t nearly as important as people make it out to be. I’ve had some very successful opens with Japan (games which the Axis won, in fact) in which I did not attack the Flying Tigers on J1. It barely slows down the Jap expanse into Asia at all, as long as you make sure to push hard into China on J2 and J3. There are some other interesting things you can do by foregoing this attack, and I don’t think it’s obvious at all which is best. So I think it’s a tad early to be declaring this as “suboptimal”.

Which J1 open is optimal, in your view?

Japan has to take out at least two Chinese territories anyway on their first turn so I don’t see any negatives in bringing 2 INF from FIC, the fighter in Manchuria and the fighter in Formosa. I agree that the flying tiger won’t cause too many problems later but I don’t see a better option for attacks in that area of the board.

I have been trying to get away from going north to get to Russia and it seems to be working. It’s a long way to go up there and the supplies run out fairly quickly. Through China and India is the best way for Japan so why not get it going right away.

@tarkonis:

@Trisdin:

• 1 Transport from sea zone 41 will pick-up 1 infantry and 1 artilery from Australia and move them to sea zone 43.
• 1 Destroyer from sea zone 41 will move into sea zone 43.

Hi again mate

Could you tell me what is the purpose of this move?

This force will help supply Africa as Italy and Japan may target the factory. It’s just going the long route to be 100% sure of safe passage. Time is everything, Italy has broken through Egypt, pushing south and spreading thin, thats when the small Aussie troop convoy will get there and reinforce the effort. The factory in South Africa only produces 2 units but just before North Africa is held and the British are crossing the suez to liberate India than the African factory can pump out planes to sink the Italian fleet or subs the help the Americans in the South Pacific. I trully believe that a factory in South Africa is a great way for the British to be competetive and avoid being obsolete, why force the US to deal with Africa while the UK’s only option will become SBR’s and France (if they can afford it without Africa)?. The factory just needs some early backup.

@Unknown:

This was my thinking for a long time, but I’m not entirely convinced of it anymore. The Chinese fighter isn’t nearly as important as people make it out to be. I’ve had some very successful opens with Japan (games which the Axis won, in fact) in which I did not attack the Flying Tigers on J1. It barely slows down the Jap expanse into Asia at all, as long as you make sure to push hard into China on J2 and J3. There are some other interesting things you can do by foregoing this attack, and I don’t think it’s obvious at all which is best. So I think it’s a tad early to be declaring this as “suboptimal”.

Any chinese alive in the frontline after J1 attacks is a unnecesary problem for Japan. Not attacking Yunnan means:

• 1 fig alive (super good for China)
• 1 inf alive at Yunnan
• 1 more inf you pop

You end with 3 inf, 1 fig alive if you spare Yunnan and attack the rest of China. They can make some minor attack and killing jap units or they could stack enough to make China pop 1 more inf China 2 (or even 2!)

Alive chineses mean more free time to soviets against Germany, more chineses popping next rounds AND more japaneses dead, a perfect way to give allies a chance of win the game that they have not by default. There are not more valuable targets J1 that you could not attack if you kill China: soviet stack at bur can be rebuilt, it’s far from Germany, can kill many japs and can mean Japan don’t attack Dutch East Indies, having no chance of being a serious threat to Japan anyway; indian fleet is not more of much use if germans conquered Egypt, and all the others can be attacked even if you kill China

This is not KGF anymore, face it. You need China alive some rounds to make work Pacific fleet at time and you have no need of sparing China if you are Japan. China’s setup is the biggest (and by luck almost the only, the other is giving 5 starting trannies to Japan) error in the game, but it’s enough to give a secure victory to axis if played well. Sparing any chinese J1 is source of allied victories

The optimal J1 includes killing all China. The non-optimal J1 includes sparing even 1 chinese inf. However, and as you said, you can still win 1941 even without doing it because Axis advantage is too big, but sparing China gives allies one of the few chances of win they have. The idea is not that you will lost if don’t kill China J1, the idea is that you CAN lose if don’t kill China J1

Not attacking Yunnan means:

• 1 fig alive (super good for China)
• 1 inf alive at Yunnan
• 1 more inf you pop

Really, none of these things are all that bad for Japan.

Keep in mind that as long as you take out the other 3 Chinese inf (or even 2 of them), China will only make 2 inf on round 1 and another 1 inf on round 2. That’s it. With Japs in Fukien, Hupeh, and FIC/Burma at the end of J1, that fighter is dead on J2 unless it retreats to Sikang. On J2 you plop down a factory in FIC and advance your troops, now you force the Chinese to retreat to Chinghai with a grand total of 4 inf and 1 ftr. The Allies have surely won now :roll:. What’s so scary about China when you have them backed into a corner with 4 inf and a fighter, and no reinforcements in sight? A few Russians helping out? C’mon. Try playing it out, its really nothing to worry about at all.

But more importantly, what you’re not seeing is what can be gained by not attacking Yunnan. You free up the inf from FIC and the 2 fighters to do other things, possibly better things.

For example, how about getting more ground units in range of India on J2? If you take East Indies, Borneo, and Burma you can have 8-9 ground units plus fighters ready to move into and hold India on J2. That means a factory can be built there on J3. If you don’t attack Burma J1, you’re looking at J4 or later before you can hold India against a competent Allied player.

So what’s more important: getting a factory in India up and running as soon as possible, ready to put pressure on Caucasus early on, or killing an inf and a fighter in China? Maybe killing the fighter is more important, who knows. Right now, I can’t see how, so I’m inclined to think that not attacking Yunnan is an acceptable sacrifice for getting India earlier than the Japs would otherwise. I’m not sure yet, but I doubt you or anyone else has conclusive answer on this yet either.

Now, you might argue that Burma and Yunnan can be attacked. This is true, but now you need to give up either Philippines or the 4 IPC British islands. Plus you won’t get the second Japanese NO. Neither is an acceptable trade though.

Alive chineses mean more free time to soviets against Germany

This is exactly what you’re hoping to prevent by not attacking Yunnan J1. Except you don’t get at the Soviets through China (not immediately anyway), you go through Persia.

BTW, you never told me what you consider to be the optimal J1 open.

I think Unknown Soldier may be playing sub optimal players if he feels that leaving the Chinese fighter alone on Japan 1 and not killing it is okay.

So far, it’s been my experience with a host of multiple different players, that the Chinese fighter had better die on Round 1 or you’re going to have one hell of a time trying to take out China.  Especially if America and England are needling you in the Pacific.

@Cmdr:

I think Unknown Soldier may be playing sub optimal players if he feels that leaving the Chinese fighter alone on Japan 1 and not killing it is okay.

I’ve been playing A&A since Classic, and so have my opponents. I guess since we don’t 273454849467 posts on A&A.org like you we must be morons though, huh?  :roll:

Maybe you could try, oh I dunno, discussing my actual argument instead of attacking the ability of my playgroup? Just a thought.

to prevent it you would probably need some russions infantery and a tank or two + preferably an epyptian fighter and the us going all in on japan. whether it is worth the effort and many ipcs is a whole different matter all together. At matter in which i’m personally leaning towards a negative response to at the moment when looking at japans potential 2nd round strik capability against india.

@Unknown:

Not attacking Yunnan means:

But more importantly, what you’re not seeing is what can be gained by not attacking Yunnan. You free up the inf from FIC and the 2 fighters to do other things, possibly better things.

For example, how about getting more ground units in range of India on J2? If you take East Indies, Borneo, and Burma you can have 8-9 ground units plus fighters ready to move into and hold India on J2. That means a factory can be built there on J3. If you don’t attack Burma J1, you’re looking at J4 or later before you can hold India against a competent Allied player.

There is no chance India can resist after J3 agains a decent axis player, even killing China J1. Any axis players should attack Egypt with 6 units, at least clearing it in most of cases, probably taking it with some tank, so all UK has to defend India is:

• 2 inf from trj
• 3 inf, art, aa gun form ind
• inf from bur
• 3 guys built round 2

Total: 9 units

Japan starts with 5 trannies and it’s pretty probable they can send at least 4 loaded to India round 3 (8 units) plus a swarm of starting figs. Let’s say about 15-16 units and any bombardment shots they can join. India lost (and the IC if UK were so fool of building it). The only chance are soviet units, but they are too busy against western axis. I can wait another turn to more jap units arrive (units saved because you killed the chineses round 1) if I manage soviets send some european units to Japan instead Germany

The point of killing China J1 is this:

• India cannot reinforce because a IC cannot be hold
• China can reinforce, even if at crappy speed  :-P
• You must kill 1st the enemy who has the chance of sending reinforcements, even if they are so crappy as the chinese ones
• Forgive China even a round and you are giving time to allies to try recovering the economic advantage. A thing allies need desperately to have a chance of win

In my current game, China was spared and I managed resist 4 rounds operational, being able of attacking and killing jap units even without the fighter (I think I managed kill about 10, including 1 tank). It’s round 5 and China still has 2 units and Japan has only art and tanks at range. Time to reinforce with soviets, not before. And this gave me time to recover economic parity. Now I feel I have a chance of win that game. Let’s say a 50%, but clearly better than at starting

Funcioneta, you make it sound like I want to ignore China, but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m only suggesting that taking Burma instead of Yunnan could be a viable open for Japan. You still need to take China out ASAP, I agree. I’m still attacking everything else like you, so China is only marginally stronger than they would be in your games. There are many thing Japan needs to accomplish on J1, killing China is only one thing.

The game is about trade-offs. You are choosing to take out China a turn earlier than me, while I am choosing to get an IC up and running in India a turn earlier. I think the latter may be more important, clearly you don’t. It’s something to consider is all.

@Funcioneta:

There is no chance India can resist after J3 agains a decent axis player, even killing China J1. Any axis players should attack Egypt with 6 units

Doing so requires using the Bomber, which means that you will either have to let the Battleship/Transport pair live, or let the Cruiser/Destroyer pair live.  The first will allow them to launch an early D-Day and build a fleet quickly.  The second will allow them to probably wipe out the Italian Fleet nice and early.

@Funcioneta:

at least clearing it in most of cases, probably taking it with some tank, so all UK has to defend India is:

• 2 inf from trj
• 3 inf, art, aa gun form ind
• inf from bur
• 3 guys built round 2

My units available to defend India for J3 could be as many as 9 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter, 4 Bombers, and an AA, with a Battleship and a Carrier Group in the waters, plus the Burma Infantry and the Egypt Tank if they survived turn 1.  So total is more like 15 units, plus a nasty fleet off the coast that you need to use those Fighters on.  Oh, and keep in mind, anything sent to attack the India Sea Zone is going to be in range of the US air force and possibly navy.

@Funcioneta:

Japan starts with 5 trannies and it’s pretty probable they can send at least 4 loaded to India round 3 (8 units) plus a swarm of starting figs. Let’s say about 15-16 units and any bombardment shots they can join. India lost (and the IC if UK were so fool of building it). The only chance are soviet units, but they are too busy against western axis. I can wait another turn to more jap units arrive (units saved because you killed the chineses round 1) if I manage soviets send some european units to Japan instead Germany

If you wait another turn, I will have taken French Indochina, Manchuria, Kiangsu, Philipines, East Indies, Borneo, and the Caroline Islands.  Taking an IC in India, were it even possible, would no longer be of limited utility, given that you are being overrun.