ah, a substantial different between Tournament and League
yes it would be very useful to consider outcomes as well
maybe Tournament and League results could include such information
then players can make more informed choices and bid statistics themselves becomes even more representative
as for rising bids, I think it’ll continue as long as Revised remains popular
You may have a point there Tekkyy.
With Classic declining in popularity, I would imagine that, excluding some of the few remaining “heavy hitter” Classic players here like Darth, Axis bids would be in the teens, whereas among the old school heavy hitters $24 or so would be the norm.
Over the past couple of years I have seen Axis bids increase to where naval unit bids are not uncommon in Revised games.
A couple of rare low bid games are keeping the averages down (such as my own $5 bid that resulted in a win in Round 1 of this year’s Tournament), but whereas I would have once stated with certainty that Axis bids ran $5 to $7, I would now have to state that they are running $7 to $9, and trending to the higher end of that scale.
Increased skill among top players with the Allies is probably the primary fuel for that increase in bids.
yeah and that comes back to the issue of informed choices
like, now and then we hear someone’s honest opinion that Axis is strong and stuff :-D
peer review of strategies and playing online has changed a lot of minds
anyway I would be impressed if you and admins could include interesting statistics with the tournament and league results
I still think 7 is the optimun for a balanced play, but I’m tired of playing axis, so in my last games I bid 8 (and get finally allies, hurray!). But seems I’ll have to go even higher if I want play allies just for change… or maybe not? Who knows? :-D
@ncscswitch:
I still win games with a 5 bid on occasion, but I have reached the point of feeling “safe” with bids of $7, and a reasonable chance to winning a bid with $8 or $9. I even bid $12 in my DAAK Tournament Game (FIDA bid though) and won the Axis (and the game by default).
Please define the following:
“on occasion”
“feeling safe”
“reasonable chance”
The balance point should be where you win half the time with a particular bid. Which one of the above phrases is closest to 50% win ratio?
Actually, my win percentage with a 5 bid is almost 100 percent.
My win percentage with a 7 bid is MUCH lower.
@ncscswitch:
Actually, my win percentage with a 5 bid is almost 100 percent.
yep 1 for 1 is as close to 100% as you can get :)
Actually, based on memory, I am 4 for 4 in revised with a bid of 5.
5 is lowest ill bid, but I like 6. I usually play with FIDA bid, so inf lib, 2 ips Ger, ipc Jap is how i go.
I think the TripleA ladder comes pretty close to 50-50 with a 9 bid (limit 1 unit per ter).
Since we have no placement restrictions it is much harder to figure out, because all bids are not equal. For example, 3 inf bid to Fic may not be as strong as 3 inf to Ukr or 3 inf to Lib.
IMO, if you just picked two random players who are familiar with the game and had them play, you’d probably want to give the Axis player 8 or 9 to make it 50-50.
And at this point I’d be even will to take the TripleA numbers and say 9 gives you a 50-50 shot even though we have different placement requirements.
:|
What we are seeing is a comfort zone, so to speak, with playing the Axis against more experienced allied players, (and we must assume that our opponents are experienced). At tripleA 9 IPC has been the required bid for all their ladder games, and as static as that may sound, it gives everyone the same balance irregardless of their experience level. Some may say that that is too high, but the wins vs losses show that that has been a very good balance point. One unit /territory is the only restriction. 3 extra Infantry in the Ukraine would be very tough for the Russians right off the bat!
On live play I will go lower, if nothing more than to give my opponent a better fighting chance, unless I know that they are a good or expert player. :wink:
So my bid usually starts at 12 and goes down to my comfort zone, of 8 or 9.
Bids have to be bassed off of skill, both yours and the opponant. for now my friend and i have yet to have the Axis loss with a bid zero… why? we havn’t mastered the Allies stratagy yet, although i think i have just won the first time with Allies at bid 0.
on the reverse by same friend and i have played a friend that i used to play a lot who is highlly skilled but is new to Revised. we gave him a bid 8 and kicked him all over the place as we had been playing a few games already against each other and had a good idea of how to make the Allies work right.
as a reverse i have played 2 games with mjkusn01 now both he was Axis and we went with bid 8 for those (or was it 7?) and he won both games. first i was beat around like a rag doll but i was still prity green to the game (had played 3 games before that with only one as Allies). the secound game my record had only changed to 5 games and 2 as Allies; i lost again but my mistakes were less and i feel i did much better and my loss was due over all to 1 or 2 bad timed moves and Allied build up that took a little too long for Europe. i think i would have been in place to land in Europe a turn or two too late.
now what am i saying hear?
that a Bid is based off skill/confert. if a player is confident in there skill then a low bid is fine, but not so much then a higher bid should be taken. i feel the 7-9 is probably prity center of the road, but a 0 against some one who hasn’t got the Allies down yet is perfectly with in reason. i mean if you were to play me as the Allies based on my track record with them why would you need a bid of 3 even? i can’t win with a bid 0 :lol:
:-)
Yes of course, one must always consider the experience level of their opponent/s.
But, in a tournyment or league game, You better not play anything less than 8 for the Axis, if you want to have a good shot at winning.
New players generally won’t get into tourneys or league games by themselves, too many good players there, and not much fun to get wipped out early.
Team play is another story, as experienced players teaming up with COOPERATIVE newer players can guide them through good strategies. Best way to learn IMHO.
And that goes back to the COMFORT ZONE I referred to, I will play “0” bid against newbies as thew Axis, but I insist that they take 9IPC if they want to play the Axis.
I do it all the time on line and when teaching new players here at home.
So, bid or no bid, Happy Gaming!
I am extremely confident that I can take most players down if they have the axis w/an 8 bid.
I will bid no lower than 9 myself as I don’t want to under estimate my opponent’s skill set as the allies and assume they know what they are doing.
In my Tourney game against both Switch and Darth I bid 12 since I highly respect their skill.
I believe that the axis, with an 9 bid, still need to have sound strats, make no mistakes and require some luck to beat me.
@JWW:
I believe that the axis, with an 9 bid, still need to have sound strats, make no mistakes and require some luck to beat me.
yes, it still comes down to 3 on 2, so the allies have that Ace in their pocket.
Another part of the ‘no mistakes’ that you refer to is bringing the right number of units into a battle, expecially in the eastern european theatre of war. often times the allies can go ‘cheap’ with aircraft and ground units and if one allied player fails to kill/take, then next reaps the benefits. Germany doesn’t get this sort of ‘rebound’ / tip-in play with Japan.
Then there are those of us who think the game is pretty well balanced (apart from OOB NAs :-P), and regard the bid as completely unnecessary, and ridiculous as well for that matter. By the time you get down to 5-6 IPCs, which some people can’t play with less than that, we are talking about 1-2 infantry or a tank. To be honest the usefulness of that, while nice in the beginning, is hardly enough to tip the balance significantly in any way shape or form in comparison to having some good tactics and long range strategy. In fact luck will have more effect than that. Germany starts out with 10 tanks and ~25 infantry last I checked, another one will hardly be the difference between balance and imbalance IMO.
Then there are those of us who think the game is pretty well balanced (apart from OOB NAs :-P), and regard the bid as completely unnecessary, and ridiculous as well for that matter. By the time you get down to 5-6 IPCs, which some people can’t play with less than that, we are talking about 1-2 infantry or a tank. To be honest the usefulness of that, while nice in the beginning, is hardly enough to tip the balance significantly in any way shape or form in comparison to having some good tactics and long range strategy. In fact luck will have more effect than that. Germany starts out with 10 tanks and ~25 infantry last I checked, another one will hardly be the difference between balance and imbalance IMO.
Well I beg to differ.
An extra 2 units in Africa keeps UK from counter attacking AES UK1.
There is a huge money swing as a result. No, not the mere $2 that is AES, I refer to the rapid expansion of Germany that would occur on G2 if those forces are left unmolested. Also, Germany usually needs to ship more units to Africa G2 if AES if countered on UK1. Other wise, Germany might use those troops in Europe or via the transport to Ukraine or such G2.
I can only agree. This game is not all about numbers of units, don’t take me wrong the numbers of units count in the long run, but more important is position e.g. 20 german arm in Weu are not worth as much as the same 20 arm in Ukr, so 1 or 2 units placed at the crucial points on the startup map, make all the diffrence.
IMO the german player would have to strech himself quite thin to retake Ukr, do Egy and kill the BB if he had no bid units.
Also an extra inf in Ukraine can often translate into a surviving fighter which will make A LOT of difference in turn 1 and throughout the game.
A Russia round 1 attack on Ukraine is a dangerous weapon. It kills the fighter but Russia generally loses their tanks in the process, and can’t hold the territory. Trying to go for West Russia on the same round can be really risky. Trust me I’ve been bit by this as Russia.
There’s a simple solution for the problem in Africa. Use the transport to drop another tank and infantry down there, use the battleship and maybe another fighter to clear the destroyer. IMO taking Anglo Egypt on round 1, with at least 2 tanks is critical to the German victory. If you fail to close the Suez, and fail to kill that fighter and tank, you will regret it the rest of the game. Next UK turn they can have an aircraft carrier, two destroyers, a transport, and two fighters in the Med. Trust me this is the last thing you want to deal with as Germany. If you want you can even have a fighter and Bomber assist in Anglo. Then have the sub from SZ8 and a couple of fighters hit the battleship. How many fighters depends on how lucky you’re feeling. :-D
On G1 the Germans can only hit Ukraine if it has been taken, or take Karelia pretty much, since Archangel is out of range and West Russia often has 9 infantry + tanks + artillery. So you’re really not losing much sending your aircraft out of Europe for round one, as long as you get them back quickly for the next round.
