@general-6-stars Yes, I would like to see that.
Grasshopper's 8d System - Conversion tables for 1940 Global units
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I see your point if it doesn’t boost inf +1.
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@SS:
I see your point if it doesn’t boost inf +1.
Sorry, but it needs this bonus both for MI and Inf, too.
I would rather drop Artillery to A2 D2 to not compromise game mechanics and tactics.We are talking about an Artillery unit on D8 which will be better by this small % odds margin compared to OOB:
37.5 - 33.3 = 4.2 * 2 (both off def) = + 8.4 % this is half pip on D6
+1 on D8 is 12.5 - 16.7 = -4.2 %
So, Artillery A3 D3 is overall only 4.2% (a quarter of a D6 pip) better than OOB Artillery.It is stronger than Tank. As it should because Tank trades firepower for mobility. But M2 is a strong advantage and Tank brings +1A to TcB.
Also, in actual D8 config, Tank are on offense as strong as Inf and better than MI on same IPCs basis. So, it does not become obsolete, to the contrary. On offense, Tank get same attack strength than Inf.
Here is the comparative with Enigma formula (still using a 12 IPCs unit reference).
144*Odds/cost^2 = strength of unit on same odds by hit per IPCs basis.Inf A1-2 : 144*.125%/9 = 2.00 / 3.67 (1:1 with Art A3) 2.94 (1:1 with Art A2)
Defense: 4.00
Inf OOB : 144* .167%/9 = 2.67 / 3.91 (1:1 with OOB Art)
Defense : 5.33MI A1-2 : 144*.125%/16 = 1.125 / 2.81 (1:1 with Art A3) 2.25 (1:1 with Art A2)
Defense : 2.50
MI OOB : 144* .167%/16 = 1.50 / 3.00 (1:1 with OOB Art)
Defense : 3.00Art A3 D3: 144*.375%/16 = 3.375
Art A2 D2: 144*.25%/16 = 2.25
Art OOB: 144*.33%/16 = 3.00Tank A4 D4 : 144*.50%/36 = 2.00
Same OOB8 Inf A1-2/8-16 D2/16 C24, overall drop –4.2*2 = 8.4+8.3%= 16.7% or 1 D6 pip
6 MI A1-2/6-12 D2/12 C24, same drop
6 Art A3/18 D3/18 C24, rise of 4.2%
4 Tank A4/16 D4/16 C24, no change. But gives 4.2% less to TacB. -
Still think Art is to strong with +1 for mech and Inf and D@3.
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It is strong but when you purchase it, it will not weaken too much the defense capacity of your already weaker defense army. A3 D2 will make this.
And Art will be more popular without stealing Tank position.
It will make for more dynamic games, relying on offensive tactics and counter-attack.
Otherwise, it will incente for very defensive stall against Tank dominancy.
Artillery will becomes a non-factor for Moscow. Even with A3 D2, Russia cannot afford such luxury because of the loss in defensive power compared to Infantry.IMO, this is between a more AA50-like dynamics with C5 Tank for Germany because Tank are less affordable for Moscow, USSR turning back upon Inf.
Or a more dynamic German’s Tanks + MI (using Art as back up) vs USSR’s Artillery+ Inf strategy. -
@Baron:
It is strong but when you purchase it, it will not weaken too much the defense capacity of your already weaker defense army. A3 D2 will make this.
And Art will be more popular without stealing Tank position.
It will make for more dynamic games, relying on offensive tactics and counter-attack.
Otherwise, it will incente for very defensive stall against Tank dominancy.As long as you have matching Inf-Mech with art to give each piece the boost it evens out or makes up for the lower defense.
Yes a Art at A3D3 will become the more buy and as I agreed in earlier post I’ll play Russia now and with Gar’s buy 6 tanks first turn with Bright Skies it will be fun to play Russia now.
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Yes, Soviet purchases become more interesting and, if you look on my previous post in which I added up Enigma numbers to compare with OOB; stronger Artillery is still not enough to level the combined arms for Inf or MI to the level of OOB combined arms. While Tank remains at OOB value.
It is still a bit below the OOB values:
Inf+Art D8 is 3.67
Inf+Art D6 is 3.91MI+Art D8 is 2.81
MI+Art D6 is 3.00Art A3 D3 on D8 is 3.375
Art D6 is 3.00
Tank D8 or D6 is 2.00
It seems I just past the 4000 posts !!!
Still Battleship level… :-)
And no Triple A PBF on my record yet.
:-D :-D :-D -
@Baron:
Yes, Soviet purchases become more interesting and, if you look on my previous post in which I added up Enigma numbers to compare with OOB; stronger Artillery is still not enough to level the combined arms for Inf or MI to the level of OOB combined arms. While Tank remains at OOB value.
It is still a bit below the OOB values:
Inf+Art D8 is 3.67
Inf+Art D6 is 3.91
MI+Art D8 is 2.81
MI+Art D6 is 3.00
Tank D8 or D6 is 2.00
It seems I just past the 4000 posts !!!
Still Battleship level… :-)
And no Triple A PBF on my record yet.
:-D :-D :-DYou win a cookie !
Ya but 3999 were just numbers ! :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Yeah.
I hope this time I can have my cookie and eat it too.
:-D :-D :-D -
So you both want Artillery that Att and Def 3/8?
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@Young:
So you both want Artillery that Att and Def 3/8?
Yes
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@SS:
@Young:
So you both want Artillery that Att and Def 3/8?
Yes
Yes.
There is more reasons this will make a more interesting game.
Such Artillery, I bet will improve the game.
Same as Cruiser A5 D5 will be more interesting purchase, so Artillery A3 D3 too. -
YG’s complete D8s roster
Here is the comparative with Enigma formula (still using a 12 IPCs unit reference) based on odds, not dice number.
144*Odds/cost^2 = strength of unit on same odds by hit per IPCs basis.I bolded the greatest number between D8 or D6 for same unit.
When there is no difference, I quoted it.
So, you can see at glance which is boosted or nerfed compared to OOB.Unit type Combat value (D8 system) (D6 OOB)
Infantry A1-2 D2 (2.00-** / 4.00) (2.67-3.92 / 5.33)
Inf A2+Arty A2 D2 2.94** / 2.94 (3.92 / 3.92)
Inf A2+Arty A3 D2 3.67** / 2.94 Same as above
Inf A2+Arty A3 D3 3.67** / 3.67 Same as aboveMechInfantry A1-2 D2 (1.125-** / 2.25) (1.50-3.00 / 3.00)
MechInf A2+Art A2 D2 (2.25** / 2.25) vs (3.00 / 3.00)
MechInf A2+Art A3 D2 (2.81** / 2.25) vs Same as above
MechInf A2+Art A3 D3 (2.81** / 2.81) vs Same as aboveArtillery A2 D2 (2.25 / 2.25) (3.00 / 3.00)
Artillery A3 D2 (3.375 / 2.25) avg: 2.813 Same as above
Artillery A3 D3 (3.375 / 3.375) Same as aboveTank A4 D4 (2.00 / 2.00) (2.00 / 2.00)
Anti-Air A A0 D1* (0.00 / 0.72 per plane) (0.00 / 0.96 per plane)
Fighter A4 D5 (0.72 / 0.90 ) (0.72 / 0.96)
TcBomber A4-5 D4 (0.595-** / 0.595) (0.595 / 0.595)
TcB A5+Tank C17 (1.12** / 1.00) (1.16 / 1.00)
TcB A5+Fighter C21 (0.735** / 0.653) (0.761 / 0.653)
StBomber A5 D1 (0.625 / 0.125) (0.667 / 0.167)
Submarine A2 D1 (1.00, fs: 1.50 / 0.50 fs: 0.67) (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Submarine A3 D1 (1.50, fs: 2.25 / 0.50 fs: 0.67) (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Submarine A3 D2 (1.50, fs: 2.25 / 1.00 fs: 1.33) (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Destroyer A2 D2 (0.563 / 0.563) (0.75 / 0.75)
Destroyer A2 D3 (0.563 / 0.844) avg: 0.704 (0.75 / 0.75)
Destroyer A3 D3 (0.844 / 0.844) (0.75 / 0.75)
Cruiser A5 D5 (0.625 / 0.625) (0.50 / 0.50)
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D2 (0.0 / 0.368) (0.00 / 0.491)
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D3 (0.0 / 0.552) As above
Battleship A6 D6 (0.707 / 0.707) (0.628 / 0.628) -
understand by putting the art attack @ 3 makes it the strongest unit on the board with regards to attack for the cost…
I think we all agree it should not have that status…
now at 2 is not right either…so…
my feeling is use combine arms for art…
besides inf and mechs getting boosted 1 attack…why not also boost art to 3 as well…
that would be a good compromise imo -
Unit Type Cst Mve Att Def CPHa CPHd
AA GUN 5 1 N/A 1 40.0
MCH INF 4 2 1 2 32.0 16.0
INF 3 1 1 2 24.0 12.0
ART 4 1 3 2 10.7 16.0
TANK 6 2 4 4 12.0 12.0
FIGHTER 10 4 4 5 20.0 16.0
TACT 11 4 4 4 22.0 22.0
STR BMB 12 6 5 1 19.2 96.0
TRANS 7 2 N/A N/A N/A N/A
SUB Â Â Â Â Â 6 2 3 2 16.0 24.0
DEST 8 2 3 3 21.3 21.3
CRUISER 12 2 5 5 19.2 19.2
AC 16 2 N/A 2 N/A 64.0
BSHIP 20 2 6 6 26.7 26.7see the art imo too powerful at 3 attack straight up, but a good way to get around this is again by doing the 2 attack stand alone and 3 when combined with either inf and/or mech
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understand by putting the art attack @ 3 makes it the strongest unit on the board with regards to attack for the cost…
I think we all agree it should not have that status…
now at 2 is not right either…so…
my feeling is use combine arms for art…
besides inf and mechs getting boosted 1 attack…why not also boost art to 3 as well…
that would be a good compromise imoIn fact, OOB it was the case by itself or combined arms with Inf, and it should IMO.
Artillery was slow but best on offense.
Unit type Combat value (D8 system) (D6 OOB)
Infantry A1-2 D2 (2.00-3.67 / 4.00) (2.67**-3.92** / 5.33)
Inf+Art A3 D3 3.67 / 3.67 (3.92 / 3.92)
MechInf A1-2 D2 (1.125-2.81 / 2.25) (1.50-3.00 / 3.00)
Artillery A2 D2 (2.25 / 2.25) (3.00 / 3.00)
Artillery A3 D3 (3.375 / 3.375) Same as above
Tank A4 D4 (2.00 / 2.00) (2.00 / 2.00)I did not make the numbers for Art A2 D2 combined arms:
Infantry+Art A1-2 D2 (2.00-2.94 / 2.94) vs 3.92 / 2.94
MechInf+Art A1-2 D2 (1.125-2.25 / 2.25) vs 1.50-3.00 / 2.25But it showed that A2 D2 is a big drop from 5.33 to 2.94 on defense.
I’m trying to keep the same type of combined arms than OOB.
I think it is easier for comparison to use odds in formula rather than absolute number which make only for comparison within the same dice system.
How do you get your 12.0 for Tank?
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=if(and(E26 <> ʺN/Aʺ, C26 <> ʺN/Aʺ), (1/(E26/8))*C26, ʺN/Aʺ)
that’s the formula for the tank…
its right…we made the tank stronger…
pretty much all the navy units as well…
this way the term “obsolete” should be eliminated…
all units are worthwhile buying now in this system -
just look at the defense of the inf…
half the cost and defend at 2tank double the cost and defend at 4
both at 12 for cost to defend…
checks out
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Unit Type Cst Mve Att Def CPHa CPHd
AA GUN 5 1 N/A 1 40.0
MCH INF 4 2 1 2 32.0 16.0
INF 3 1 1 2 24.0 12.0
ART 4 1 3 2 10.7 16.0
TANK 6 2 4 4 12.0 12.0
FIGHTER 10 4 4 5 20.0 16.0
TACT 11 4 4 4 22.0 22.0
STR BMB 12 6 5 1 19.2 96.0
TRANS 7 2 N/A N/A N/A N/A
SUB � � � � � 6 2 3 2 16.0 24.0
DEST 8 2 3 3 21.3 21.3
CRUISER 12 2 5 5 19.2 19.2
AC 16 2 N/A 2 N/A 64.0
BSHIP 20 2 6 6 26.7 26.7see the art imo too powerful at 3 attack straight up, but a good way to get around this is again by doing the 2 attack stand alone and 3 when combined with either inf and/or mech
If you show attack before defense, then there is a few discrepancies in your table.
Some numbers are probably not right, such as TcB compared to Fg. -
=if(and(E26 <> ʺN/Aʺ, C26 <> ʺN/Aʺ), (1/(E26/8))*C26, ʺN/Aʺ)
that’s the formula for the tank…
its right…we made the tank stronger…
pretty much all the navy units as well…
this way the term “obsolete” should be eliminated…
all units are worthwhile buying now in this systemExcept for Artillery A2 D2 (2.25) which will be almost like Tank (2.00).
The mobility would make Tank a better investment than a M1.
Artillery OOB was not that purchased even with a high combined arms factor for Infantry (3.92)
But, with a low 2.94 it will be still less interesting for offense. -
I think where it currently falls on the list provides the best interpretation of the Oob unit (Att 3/8 - Def 2/8). its a much better unit in amphibious assaults, but still a very weak unit for long drives across land.
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