Grasshopper's 8d System - Conversion tables for 1940 Global units

[General 6 Stars]

Still think Art is to strong with +1 for mech and Inf and D@3.

[baron Münchhausen]

It is strong but when you purchase it, it will not weaken too much the defense capacity of your already weaker defense army. A3 D2 will make this.

And Art will be more popular without stealing Tank position.

It will make for more dynamic games, relying on offensive tactics and counter-attack.
Otherwise, it will incente for very defensive stall against Tank dominancy.
Artillery will becomes a non-factor for Moscow. Even with A3 D2, Russia cannot afford such luxury because of the loss in defensive power compared to Infantry.

IMO, this is between a more AA50-like dynamics with C5 Tank for Germany because Tank are less affordable for Moscow, USSR turning back upon Inf.
Or a more dynamic German’s Tanks + MI (using Art as back up) vs USSR’s Artillery+ Inf strategy.

[General 6 Stars]

@Baron:

It is strong but when you purchase it, it will not weaken too much the defense capacity of your already weaker defense army. A3 D2 will make this.

And Art will be more popular without stealing Tank position.

It will make for more dynamic games, relying on offensive tactics and counter-attack.
Otherwise, it will incente for very defensive stall against Tank dominancy.

As long as you have matching Inf-Mech with art to give each piece the boost it evens out or makes up for the lower defense.

Yes a Art at A3D3 will become the more buy and as I agreed in earlier post I’ll play Russia now and with Gar’s buy 6 tanks first turn with Bright Skies it will be fun to play Russia now.

[baron Münchhausen]

Yes, Soviet purchases become more interesting and, if you look on my previous post in which I added up Enigma numbers to compare with OOB; stronger Artillery is still not enough to level the combined arms for Inf or MI to the level of OOB combined arms. While Tank remains at OOB value.
It is still a bit below the OOB values:
Inf+Art D8 is 3.67
Inf+Art D6 is 3.91

MI+Art D8 is 2.81
MI+Art D6 is 3.00

Art A3 D3 on D8 is 3.375
Art D6 is 3.00
Tank D8 or D6 is 2.00

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It seems I just past the 4000 posts !!!
Still Battleship level…  :-)
And no Triple A PBF on my record yet.
:-D :-D :-D

[General 6 Stars]

@Baron:

Yes, Soviet purchases become more interesting and, if you look on my previous post in which I added up Enigma numbers to compare with OOB; stronger Artillery is still not enough to level the combined arms for Inf or MI to the level of OOB combined arms. While Tank remains at OOB value.
It is still a bit below the OOB values:
Inf+Art D8 is 3.67
Inf+Art D6 is 3.91
MI+Art D8 is 2.81
MI+Art D6 is 3.00
Tank D8 or D6 is 2.00

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It seems I just past the 4000 posts !!!
Still Battleship level…  :-)
And no Triple A PBF on my record yet.
:-D :-D :-D

You win a cookie !

Ya but 3999 were just numbers !    :-D :-D :-D :-D

[baron Münchhausen]

Yeah.
I hope this time I can have my cookie and eat it too.
:-D :-D :-D

[Young Grasshopper]

So you both want Artillery that Att and Def 3/8?

[General 6 Stars]

@Young:

So you both want Artillery that Att and Def 3/8?

Yes

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

@Young:

So you both want Artillery that Att and Def 3/8?

Yes

Yes.
There is more reasons this will make a more interesting game.
Such Artillery, I bet will improve the game.
Same as Cruiser A5 D5 will be more interesting purchase, so Artillery A3 D3 too.

[baron Münchhausen]

YG’s complete D8s roster

Here is the comparative with Enigma formula (still using a 12 IPCs unit reference) based on odds, not dice number.
144*Odds/cost^2 = strength of unit on same odds by hit per IPCs basis.

I bolded the greatest number between D8 or D6 for same unit.
When there is no difference, I quoted it.
So, you can see at glance which is boosted or nerfed compared to OOB.

Unit type  Combat value  (D8 system) (D6 OOB)
Infantry       A1-2 D2    (2.00-** / 4.00)         (2.67-3.92 / 5.33)
Inf A2+Arty A2 D2         2.94**  /  2.94         (3.92 / 3.92)
Inf A2+Arty A3 D2         3.67**  /  2.94         Same as above
Inf A2+Arty A3 D3         3.67**  /  3.67         Same as above

MechInfantry A1-2 D2  (1.125-** / 2.25)       (1.50-3.00 / 3.00)
MechInf A2+Art A2 D2  (2.25** / 2.25) vs       (3.00 / 3.00)
MechInf A2+Art A3 D2  (2.81** / 2.25) vs        Same as above
MechInf A2+Art A3 D3  (2.81** / 2.81) vs        Same as above

Artillery   A2 D2       (2.25 / 2.25)                  (3.00 / 3.00)
Artillery    A3 D2    (3.375 / 2.25) avg: 2.813  Same as above
Artillery    A3 D3       (3.375 / 3.375)             Same as above

Tank         A4 D4            (2.00 / 2.00)            (2.00 / 2.00)

Anti-Air A  A0 D1* (0.00 / 0.72 per plane)       (0.00 / 0.96 per plane)

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Fighter      A4 D5    (0.72 / 0.90 )              (0.72 / 0.96)

TcBomber  A4-5 D4 (0.595-** / 0.595)       (0.595 / 0.595)

TcB A5+Tank C17    (1.12** / 1.00)         (1.16 / 1.00)
TcB A5+Fighter C21 (0.735** / 0.653)     (0.761 / 0.653)
StBomber  A5 D1    (0.625 / 0.125)         (0.667 / 0.167)

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Submarine  A2 D1 (1.00, fs: 1.50 / 0.50 fs: 0.67)   (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Submarine  A3 D1 (1.50, fs: 2.25 / 0.50 fs: 0.67)  (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Submarine  A3 D2 (1.50, fs: 2.25 / 1.00 fs: 1.33)   (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Destroyer    A2 D2 (0.563 / 0.563)                        (0.75 / 0.75)
Destroyer    A2 D3 (0.563 / 0.844) avg:   0.704       (0.75 / 0.75)
Destroyer    A3 D3 (0.844 / 0.844)                        (0.75 / 0.75)
Cruiser        A5 D5  (0.625 / 0.625)                       (0.50 / 0.50)
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D2 (0.0 / 0.368)                            (0.00 / 0.491)
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D3 (0.0 / 0.552)                          As above
Battleship    A6 D6   (0.707 / 0.707)                      (0.628 / 0.628)

[bigalmeacham]

understand by putting the art attack @ 3 makes it the strongest unit on the board with regards to attack for the cost…
I think we all agree it should not have that status…
now at 2 is not right either…so…
my feeling is use combine arms for art…
besides inf and mechs getting boosted 1 attack…why not also boost art to 3 as well…
that would be a good compromise imo

[bigalmeacham]

Unit Type Cst Mve Att Def CPHa CPHd
AA GUN 5 1 N/A 1 40.0
MCH INF 4 2 1 2 32.0 16.0
INF          3 1 1 2 24.0 12.0
ART          4 1 3 2 10.7 16.0
TANK         6 2 4 4 12.0 12.0
FIGHTER 10 4 4 5 20.0 16.0
TACT 11 4 4 4 22.0 22.0
STR BMB 12 6 5 1 19.2 96.0
TRANS 7 2 N/A N/A N/A N/A
SUB          6 2 3 2 16.0 24.0
DEST 8 2 3 3 21.3 21.3
CRUISER 12 2 5 5 19.2 19.2
AC            16 2 N/A 2 N/A 64.0
BSHIP 20 2 6 6 26.7 26.7

see the art imo too powerful at 3 attack straight up, but a good way to get around this is again by doing the 2 attack stand alone and 3 when combined with either inf and/or mech

[baron Münchhausen]

@bigalmeacham:

understand by putting the art attack @ 3 makes it the strongest unit on the board with regards to attack for the cost…
I think we all agree it should not have that status…
now at 2 is not right either…so…
my feeling is use combine arms for art…
besides inf and mechs getting boosted 1 attack…why not also boost art to 3 as well…
that would be a good compromise imo

In fact, OOB it was the case by itself or combined arms with Inf, and it should IMO.
Artillery was slow but best on offense.
Unit type  Combat value  (D8 system) (D6 OOB)
Infantry    A1-2 D2  (2.00-3.67 / 4.00)  (2.67**-3.92** / 5.33)
Inf+Art A3 D3           3.67  /  3.67         (3.92 / 3.92)
MechInf    A1-2 D2  (1.125-2.81 / 2.25) (1.50-3.00 / 3.00)
Artillery    A2 D2       (2.25 / 2.25)         (3.00 / 3.00)
Artillery    A3 D3       (3.375 / 3.375)       Same as above
Tank         A4 D4        (2.00 / 2.00)         (2.00 / 2.00)

I did not make the numbers for Art A2 D2 combined arms:
Infantry+Art    A1-2 D2  (2.00-2.94 / 2.94) vs 3.92 / 2.94
MechInf+Art    A1-2 D2  (1.125-2.25 / 2.25) vs 1.50-3.00 / 2.25

But it showed that A2 D2 is a big drop from 5.33 to 2.94 on defense.

I’m trying to keep the same type of combined arms than OOB.

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I think it is easier for comparison to use odds in formula rather than absolute number which make only for comparison within the same dice system.

How do you get your 12.0 for Tank?

[bigalmeacham]

=if(and(E26 <> ʺN/Aʺ, C26 <> ʺN/Aʺ), (1/(E26/8))*C26, ʺN/Aʺ)

that’s the formula for the tank…
its right…

we made the tank stronger…
pretty much all the navy units as well…
this way the term “obsolete” should be eliminated…
all units are worthwhile buying now in this system

[bigalmeacham]

just look at the defense of the inf…
half the cost and defend at 2

tank double the cost and defend at 4

both at 12 for cost to defend…

checks out

[baron Münchhausen]

@bigalmeacham:

Unit Type Cst Mve Att Def CPHa CPHd
AA GUN 5 1 N/A 1 40.0
MCH INF 4 2 1 2 32.0 16.0
INF           3 1 1 2 24.0 12.0
ART          4 1 3 2 10.7 16.0
TANK        6 2 4 4 12.0 12.0
FIGHTER 10 4 4 5 20.0 16.0
TACT 11 4 4 4 22.0 22.0
STR BMB 12 6 5 1 19.2 96.0
TRANS 7 2 N/A N/A N/A N/A
SUB �  �  �  �  � 6 2 3 2 16.0 24.0
DEST 8 2 3 3 21.3 21.3
CRUISER 12 2 5 5 19.2 19.2
AC            16 2 N/A 2 N/A 64.0
BSHIP 20 2 6 6 26.7 26.7

see the art imo too powerful at 3 attack straight up, but a good way to get around this is again by doing the 2 attack stand alone and 3 when combined with either inf and/or mech

If you show attack before defense, then there is a few discrepancies in your table.
Some numbers are probably not right, such as TcB compared to Fg.

[baron Münchhausen]

@bigalmeacham:

=if(and(E26 <> ʺN/Aʺ, C26 <> ʺN/Aʺ), (1/(E26/8))*C26, ʺN/Aʺ)

that’s the formula for the tank…
its right…

we made the tank stronger…
pretty much all the navy units as well…
this way the term “obsolete” should be eliminated…
all units are worthwhile buying now in this system

Except for Artillery A2 D2 (2.25) which will be almost like Tank (2.00).
The mobility would make Tank a better investment than a M1.
Artillery OOB was not that purchased even with a high combined arms factor for Infantry (3.92)
But, with a low 2.94 it will be still less interesting for offense.

[Young Grasshopper]

I think where it currently falls on the list provides the best interpretation of the Oob unit (Att 3/8 - Def 2/8). its a much better unit in amphibious assaults, but still a very weak unit for long drives across land.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Young:

I think where it currently falls on the list provides the best interpretation of the Oob unit (Att 3/8 - Def 2/8). its a much better unit in amphibious assaults, but still a very weak unit for long drives across land.

Why don’t try it the other way?
Att 2/8 - Def 3/8 +1A bonus to Inf or MI?

It would make more sense that big guns be good for defensive stance while providing a boost to Inf and MI.
And moving them constantly forward during attack is less convenient.

On amphibious assault, it does not seem right that Artillery is better than Tank from historical POV.
If the other way (Art A2 D3):
Inf A2 + Art A2 = A4
Inf A1 + Tank A4 = A5

But, in pure number, from game POV, it seems to work almost as OOB TP (67% odds):
Inf A2 + Art A3 = A5 (62.5%)
Inf A1 + Tank A4 = A5

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Anyway, I did my best to make the case for Artillery A3 D3 +1A to Inf or MI.

[taamvan]

where are the marines need that to make arty awesome…