@SS:
@SS:
Make it A3 D2 with there special abilities. Always wanted stronger subs in game.
I play D12 games and your close to Attack value A4 33.3 % but in D12 defense is D2 16.6 % so for d8 your defense is 8.34 % better. Just showing numbers. I may have to raise the sub to a D3 to match the rest of the numbered dice. But subs cost 8.
A3 D2 C6 with all special abilities to strong. But would love this in a game.
Your options
A3 D1 C6. With YG proposal house rule
A2 D2 C6. Wolf packs +1 on A per 2 subs
A3 D1 C6. All German subs A3 D2 gives them a bit more
A3 D2. C8. Never will happen in this game
A3 D2 C6. Subs in Atlantic side
A3 D1. C6. Subs in Pacific side. But this would never happenYou guys for the 40 OOB game are getting closer every month towards the 39 game rules with your changing things up. :-D :-D
I believe no matter what you do for sub values you are going to need a house rule installed.
Thanks for this summary.
Do you agree with me SS, that A3 D1 is the nearest to OOB amongst KISS possibilities?
Even if this is the one choice with less vote, it keeps is charm because overall balance 4 pips on 8 sides dice is a clean 50%, same as OOB.
I’m not fan of additional combined arms, but wolf pack is interesting.
Yes probably. If it means finding the happy middle some what. But still give them there special abilities. As I said before in D12 games subs are A4 D2 C8 so as far as defense there still on line.
@wittmann:
I said: 2 and 1, if Subs stay at the cheap cost of 6.
Would change that up (to 3 and 2), if Subs cost a more reasonable 8.
I voted Att 3/8 - Def 2/8. It’s implied that the vote is based upon the OOB cost of 6 IPCs.
Even though Baron’s numbers seem like the purist translation of oob submarine values into the 8 sided system, we can now look at unit improvement the same way cruisers are improved by 50% and battleships are improved by 66.7%. It is quite possible that Subs will land in the Att 3/8 Def 2/8 range simply because it’s needed despite their cost. Pretty much every Sea unit has improved accept for aircraft carriers (which is designed to stunt their dominate purchasing influence), so bumping subs a tad while still making them defend less than they attack is still feasible. Never the less, thank you Baron for discovering those true translated numbers. So the next question becomes… if subs remain 6 IPCs and Att 3/8 Def 2/8 like the poll is reflecting, will submarines spawn like locus?
@Young:
Even though Baron’s numbers seem like the purist translation of oob submarine values into the 8 sided system, we can now look at unit improvement the same way cruisers are improved by 50% and battleships are improved by 66.7%. It is quite possible that Subs will land in the Att 3/8 Def 2/8 range simply because it’s needed despite their cost. Pretty much every Sea unit has improved accept for aircraft carriers (which is designed to stunt their dominate purchasing influence), so bumping subs a tad while still making them defend less than they attack is still feasible. Never the less, thank you Baron for discovering those true translated numbers. So the next question becomes… if subs remain 6 IPCs and Att 3/8 Def 2/8 like the poll is reflecting, will submarines spawn like locus?
Who knows. I’d like to think I’d still need all of the other ships for various purposes nearly the same. For offensive strength building, it might help the US. And vice versa if Japan has sacked India real quick and has a good blockade up, then they might get the chance to spam purchase them. As it is now, it seems like everyone already spam purchases subs. I don’t think this will change things much.
YG,
Is your group going to play with 8 sided dice?
YG,
Is your group going to play with 8 sided dice?
Eventually I believe yes, but that may be years down the road.
Thanks YG,
at this stage, there is 2 opposite tendencies based on the poll.
The straight translation to A3 D1 is not popular while many want to boost Subs with a +12.5% vs OOB (50%) : overall A3 D2 meaning 5 pips on 8 sides = 62.5%.
Wittmann spoke for the other nerfing positions: A2 D1 (37.5%), for an overall -12.5%, below OOB.
Wittmann is playing a lot in line.
YG, you play less games but you play only F-2F.
Ichabod also said:
As it is now, it seems like everyone already spam purchases subs. I don’t think this will change things much.
Maybe there is a kind of local bias about Sub use or lack of use ?
I would like to know which aspect of Subs in game makes you judge Sub needs a boost or needs to be weakened.
Is it that some players rely on Destroyers as fodder instead of Subs?
Or, there is many Subs but they stick too much to the main fleet?
Wanting more Battle of Atlantic-like behavior, does it means there is only few Subs after R1 to R3?
Or there is many Subs purchased ETO but not behave to depict such historical situation (which last from 1939 to 1944, mainly) ?
As an example, Italy being far more Convoy disrupted by Allies than England, by U-boats?
So, can we look at the big picture?
Maybe this exchange of POV on Sub and their use might help see what can be done to make D8 system more interesting to play than D6.
For subs costing 6 icp and a increase of +4% on A and +8% on D I don’t see a huge swarm of sub buys unless you think your +8% on defense is worth it. Better for convoy raiding and Germany ? Also what Ichabod said too ?
Germany going to buy any subs if they go sea lion ?
YG did state that subs weren’t scary enough in the Atlantic.
You still need destroyers for blocking.
Only sticky point I see is the cost of 6 icp sub for some people now. Some want the A3 D1 but that makes the sub less scarier to me. Sub is slightly stronger than the destroyer.
If I played G40, I’d test this heck out of this. Only way you’ll know if it works.
Enough of this !
Baron crunch me some numbers with my new dice I just got. :-D
Sorry YG I couldn’t help myself.
These will roll on and on and on and on and on…
:wink:
So, no result at all!!!
Use a battlecalc that has 100 sided dice. I think I will do a program like that.
Unit profiles have been updated to reflect the poll results… Thanks for participating.
Attacking unit dice odds
1/8 - White (12.5%)
Infantry (-16.7%)
Mech Infantry (-16.7%)
2/8 - Green (25%)
Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)
Mech Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)
3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
Artillery (+33%)
Submarine (+33%)
Destroyer (+33%)
4/8 - Purple (50%)
Tank (0%)
Fighter (0%)
Tactical Bomber (0%)
5/8 - Red (62.5%)
Strategic Bomber (-66.7%)
Cruiser (+50%)
Tactical Bomber w/Fighter or w/Tank (-66.7%)
6/8 - Black (75%)
Battleship (+66.7%)
Defending unit dice odds
1/8 - White (12.5%)
AA Guns (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber (-16.7%)
2/8 - Green (25%)
Infantry (-33%)
Mech Infantry (-33%)
Artillery (-33%)
Submarine (+16.7%)
Aircraft Carrier (-33%)
3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
Destroyer (+33%)
4/8 - Purple (50%)
Tank (0%)
Tactical Bomber (0%)
5/8 - Red (62.5%)
Fighter (- 66.7%)
Cruiser (+50%)
6/8 - Black (75%)
Battleship (+66.7%)
Strategic bombing air combat values
1/8 - White (12.5%)
Tac Bomber (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber (-16.7)
2/8 - Green (25%)
Fighter interceptor (+16.7%)
Fighter escort (+16.7%)
Kamikaze Token defense values
2/8 - Green (25%)
Kamikaze Token (-33%)
*Special thanks to Big Al “Mike Tyson” for contributing in this idea & Baron Munchhausen for his calculations.
The Sub line has to be change:
1/8 - White (12.5%)
AA Guns (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber (-16.7%)
Submarine (-16.7%)
2/8 - Green (25%)
Infantry (-33%)
Mech Infantry (-33%)
Artillery (-33%)
Submarine (+16.7%)
Aircraft Carrier (-33%)
These (odds) can be added too:
Strategic bombing air combat values
1/8 - White (12.5%)
Tac Bomber (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber (-16.7)
2/8 - Green (25%)
Fighter interceptor (+16.7%)
Fighter escort (+16.7%)
Kamikaze Token defense values
2/8 - Green (25%)
Kamikaze Token (-33%)
@Baron:
The Sub line has to be change:
1/8 - White (12.5%)
AA Guns (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber (-16.7%)
Submarine (-16.7%)2/8 - Green (25%)
Infantry (-33%)
Mech Infantry (-33%)
Artillery (-33%)
Submarine (+16.7%)
Aircraft Carrier (-33%)These (odds) can be added too:
Strategic bombing air combat values1/8 - White (12.5%)
Tac Bomber (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber (-16.7)2/8 - Green (25%)
Fighter interceptor (+16.7%)
Fighter escort (+16.7%)Kamikaze Token defense values
2/8 - Green (25%)
Kamikaze Token (-33%)
Done!, Thank you Baron… I must be extremely tiered (LOL).
Probably a lot to organize for the tournament…
@Baron:
Probably a lot to organize for the tournament…
Ya, you can tell how much thought energy I have for this game if I’m doing all of that, and trying to workout this 8 sided idea… but I really think converting to 8 sides can be something a lot of people could get on board with.
I have to say this is great IMO…
All of the “obsolete” units have been improved to a point that hopefully folks will now buy them…
Meaning cruisers and even battleships will hopefully be purchased with this new format…
Another way to look at it – units are in the stands in a baseball game right now (tanks, cruisers, battleships, etc.), but with this format ALL units should be in the playing field in terms of ROI…
Pretty cool…
Now…the question is…can we agree on a “standard” bid for the Allies at the start of a game…
I have heard a good idea that USA get’s two battleships at the start of the game…
Please comment on this and other ideas…
thanks
The only issue I see that remains is about AAA.
It is not a popular unit OOB. It cannot be more interesting if it is nerfed.
But I understand why it is nerfed.
So, one remaining options is to reduced cost to 3 IPCs…
But it was out of question per the original parameter of this thread.
IDK what can be done about it…
@Baron:
The only issue I see that remains is about AAA.
It is not a popular unit OOB. It cannot be more interesting if it is nerfed.
But I understand why it is nerfed.
So, one remaining options is to reduced cost to 3 IPCs…
But it was out of question per the original parameter of this thread.
IDK want can be done about it…
No house rules or cost changes, it’s either gonna be a 1/8 or a 2/8 on the 8 sided system.
