(Classic) Heavy Artillery - Rules for a new ground unit for Classic

Here is 4 of n for discussion of my Classic House Rules

Heavy Artillery
Unit Name     IPC Cost ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Heavy Artillery     6      3     3      1      Can only hit Ground Units. Can increase attack for Infantry, etc., attack by support. See below for Long Range Attack and Coastal Defense rules.
Heavy Artillery - The King of Battle. These are the truly big guns, massed to support the main thrust of an army. These are not anti-aircraft guns and therefore can not hit aircraft. Can provide supporting fire for Infantry and any other Infantry-like units, increasing their attack by 1. This support can be provided for up to two supported units per each Heavy Artillery unit involved in the battle that is not conducting Long Range Attack and is in addition to the Heavy Artillery’s own attack roll. Can also conduct Long Range Attack and Coastal Defense - See below for more.

Heavy Artillery Special Attacks
Long Range Attack: Support the attack into the next country over, without going into the next country over. This can be combined with the Heavy Artillery unit’s own movement (e.g. the Heavy Artillery unit may move from one territory to the next and then attack into a territory bordering the new territory as a part of a greater attack into the territory in question.) When doing so, the Heavy Artillery unit in question in not allowed to be used as a casualty in the battle - if a Heavy Artillery unit doing Long Range Attack is the only unit left, the attack is over and has failed.

Coastal Defense: Support the defense of the territory the Heavy Artillery unit is located, in the face of an Amphibious Invasion. As Battleships (and optionally, Cruisers) get to conduct shore bombardment to “soften up” the defensive forces prior to the actual landing of troops, Heavy Artillery units get to conduct Coastal Defense to help repel the attacking force. Each Heavy Artillery unit in the territory that is being invaded gets to fire one time at the Transports carrying the attacking force. On a roll of a 1, one Transport is sunk and its cargo is lost at sea before the units on-board can land anywhere. A decision as to which transports are carrying what cargo should ideally be made before prior to rolling the Coastal Defense attack. Heavy Artillery can conduct Coastal Defense whether or not any shore bombardment is conducted on behalf of the Amphibious Invasion. Heavy Artillery that has used its Coastal Defense attack may take part in the further defense of its territory.

My rules for Cruisers, Paratroopers, and Cargo Planes are my spin on things many other people have commented on about or added to the rules for Axis & Allies, whether the classic or a more modern edition. But my inspiration for Heavy Artillery comes from one person: Ralph Boerke. I was reading about Axis & Allies on the internet roughly 18 or 20 years ago and found his website with his thoughts about making Axis & Allies a better, or at least a more interesting, game. While his website is gone, you can still find what he had to say on the Internet Wayback Machine (archive.org/) at “www.kw.igs.net/~tacit/aanda/expansions/risk.htm”.

His thesis: Why not combine the Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery from Parker Brothers’ Risk with the rest of Milton Bradley’s Axis & Allies? (And yes, these ideas date from before Hasborg bought everybody up.) The result: Ralph Boerke’s rules for Troopers, Armored Cavalry, and Artillery. (I discussed what I did with his Armored Cavalry and Troopers in post #3.)

I’ll let Mr. Boerke discuss his idea for himself:
@Ralph:

Artillery: These are the guns, howitzers, artillery, mortars, that are used in the offensive and defensive bombardments. When Attacking they can fire into a neighbouring territory or into the territory that they are in. When Defending they can only fire at enemy units within their territory.
They only move a range of one territory. However they can move one territory and then fire into the next one! These are moved during Combat Movement, similarly to Rocket AAGuns, even though not in an actual embattled Territory. If they move into a battle they can retreat with the rest of the retreating forces. If they do not move into battle they can not retreat even though they take part in the battle.
Once an Artillery unit is fired it does not move (except in retreats).
Unlike AAGuns they fire each round of battle and can be hit and destroyed. They can hit only Land units. They can not hit Fighters or Bombers or Ships (see below). A lone Artillery defending a territory against a Fighter or Bomber will be lost.
You can have more than one Artillery on a territory.

Mr. Boerke also gave some ideas for where to place his Troopers, Armored Cavalry, and Artillery at the start of the game. I plan to discuss my thoughts for a revised initial placement of units in another post.

As for what to use to denote these units on the board? Well, Mr. Boerke told us to use Risk pieces. He said that a couple decades ago, but as Risk still comes with Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery pieces it is still an option. Other options include: Artillery pieces from Table Tactics’ Central Powers A&A expansion (also many years out of print), Artillery pieces from Eagle-Gryphon Games Attack! (It’s an option, I didn’t say you had to use it.), good old HBG has different Artillery units from all five powers in A&A Classic, and there are other ways to get your heavy gun fix on.

Heavy Artillery, as proposed in my twist on Mr. Boerke rule-set, are creatures of their time and place. Every version of Axis & Allies released since A&A Classic have added Artillery to the unit mix. But few Artillery proposed by Larry Harris are as powerful, or as expensive, as this take. These pieces can: Attack and Defend on land, be taken as a casualty in combat, support Infantry in the Attack, support an Attack from an adjacent territory (and thereby avoid being taken as a casualty), and go toe-to-toe with Battleships during an Amphibious Invasion, potentially destroying some attacking troops before they ever make it to the shore. Heavy Artillery attack and defend at 3, 50% better than standard A&A Artillery’s attack and defend of 2. This unit’s only drawbacks are a limitation against hitting flying units, a cost of 6 over 4 for normal Artillery, and a movement of 1, shared with normal Artillery.

So, if this beast is too powerful as-is, what’s to be done? I like Heavy Artillery as-is for A&A Classic but admit that there are quite a few abilities hung on this unit, possibly too many. I would suggest trimming Heavy Artillery’s specials in this order: 1) Heavy Artillery’s Infantry Supporting Fire, 2) Long Range Attack, 3) Coastal Defense. Normal Artillery also provide this supporting fire, there is likely no need for two units doing the same thing. Long Range Attack is a cool-sounding ability that is perhaps a bit of a stretch given the global map of A&A. “So, I’m counter-attacking US troops that have landed in Normandy by using my Heavy Artillery in Rome and Berlin?” But the use of on-call fire support to attempt to destroy forces being landed in an Amphibious Invasion? That is something that was actually done during World War II. Additionally, it gives powers another option to defend their critical territories from landings by sea from their enemies. Also, this special ability only hits on a roll of 1 instead of the 3 that Heavy Artillery regularly roll. Another option would be to just raise the cost of the unit from 6 IPCs. Perhaps something that does all this unit can do should cost 8 IPCs? Or maybe 10 IPCs?

I await your comments.

-Midnight_Reaper

P.S. Edit to remove some diamonds from the text. Wording of the post remains unchanged.

@SS:

Heavy Artilliary

C6 A3 D2 M1  +1 support 1-1 per inf. Can fire into next territory but then can only M1 on non combat. Or move 1 in combat but doesnt get next territory shot. You could have If you roll a 1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire. Cant hit planes period.

No love for Coastal Defense as an ability? Also, not being allowed to move in Combat Movement and do a Long Range Attack nerfs Heavy Artillery’s attack utility. This method would leave Long Range Attack strictly as a counter-attack ability. With an Attack of 3, you do get the strike value of a Fighter for roughly 1/2 the price.

How about one of these revamps:
@Offensive-Minded:

Unit Name    IPC Cost ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Heavy Artillery    6      3    2      1      Can only hit Ground Units. Can increase attack for Infantry, etc., attack by support. See below for Long Range Attack rules.
Heavy Artillery - The King of Battle. These are the truly big guns, massed to support the main thrust of an army. These are not anti-aircraft guns and therefore can not hit aircraft. Can provide supporting fire for Infantry and any other Infantry-like units during an attack, increasing their Attack by 1. This support is for one (1) Infantry per each Heavy Artillery unit involved in the battle that is not conducting Long Range Attack and is in addition to the Heavy Artillery’s own attack roll. Can also conduct Long Range Attack - See below for more.

Long Range Attack: Support the attack into the next country over, without going into the next country over. This can be combined with the Heavy Artillery unit’s own movement (e.g. the Heavy Artillery unit may move from one territory to the next and then attack into a territory bordering the new territory as a part of a greater attack into the territory in question.) When doing so, the Heavy Artillery unit in question in not allowed to be used as a casualty in the battle - if a Heavy Artillery unit doing Long Range Attack is the only unit left, the attack is over and has failed.

This would be an offensive-minded re-tuning. Keeps the combination Combat Move & Long Range Attack ability in the same turn, while paring Artillery Support from 2 Inf per H. Arty to 1 Inf per H. Arty. Additionally, keeps the attack value at 3 while trimming the defense value to 2 and removing the Coastal Defense ability.

@Defensive-Minded:

Unit Name    IPC Cost ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Heavy Artillery    6      2    3      1      Can only hit Ground Units. Can increase attack for Infantry, etc., attack by support. See below for Coastal Defense rules.
Heavy Artillery - The King of Battle. These are the truly big guns, massed to support the main thrust of an army. These are not anti-aircraft guns and therefore can not hit aircraft. Can provide supporting fire for Infantry and any other Infantry-like units in the defense, increasing their Defense by 1. This support can be provided for up to two (2) supported units per each Heavy Artillery unit in the defending territory and is in addition to the Heavy Artillery’s own defense roll. Can also conduct Coastal Defense - See below for more.

Coastal Defense: Support the defense of the territory the Heavy Artillery unit is located, in the face of an Amphibious Invasion. As Battleships (and optionally, Cruisers) get to conduct shore bombardment to “soften up” the defensive forces prior to the actual landing of troops, Heavy Artillery units get to conduct Coastal Defense to help repel the attacking force. Each Heavy Artillery unit in the territory that is being invaded gets to fire one time at the Transports carrying the attacking force. On a roll of a 1, one Transport is sunk and its cargo is lost at sea before the units on-board can land anywhere. A decision as to which transports are carrying what cargo should ideally be made before prior to rolling the Coastal Defense attack. Heavy Artillery can conduct Coastal Defense whether or not any shore bombardment is conducted on behalf of the Amphibious Invasion. Heavy Artillery that has used its Coastal Defense attack may take part in the further defense of its territory.

This would be an defensive-minded re-tuning. Keeps the Artillery Support to 2 Inf per H. Arty but changes when the support applies from attack only to defense only. Additionally, keeps the defense value at 3 while trimming the attack value to 2 and removing the Long Range Attack ability.

One of these would be closer to my vision for an addition of “Big Guns” to the A&A battlefield.

-Midnight_Reaper

@SS:

If you want the H Art gun to have all the abilities you want then just raise the cost to 8.

The following is going to come off wrong, between a combination of ‘this is the Internet’ and ‘I suck at inter-personal communication’ but I mean the following sincerely and without either malice or anger. Promise.

I’m interested in honest back-and-forth. I don’t know everything, I can’t foresee the implications of every possible deviation from the rule book as published. That’s why I’m throwing these rules up for scrutiny in the first place.

I can do anything I want. I don’t need anybody’s permission for that. What I want to see is whether other people see things the way I do or not. So far, I get the impression that they do not. And that’s fine as well. I suspect that the only people who get any mileage out of these rules, whether presented as a new way to play Classic or as a new way to play '42, Second Edition, will be myself and whomever I can get play with me face to face.

Truth be told, somebody sat down and said: “I want to add this stack of plastic to this other stack of plastic. Now, how do I do that?”, and then somebody else (me) sat down, read their published ideas, and said: “This looks like a good start, but what would make this better?” Is ‘A3D2M1C6 with +1 to the attack of another unit, can’t hit Air units, can attack the next territory without moving there’ better, worse, or indifferent from ‘A2D3M1C6 with +1 to the defense of another unit, can’t hit Air units, can do ‘reverse bombardment’ during an amphibious invasion’? And are either of the above better, worse, or indifferent than ’ ‘A3D3M1C8 with +1 to the attack or defense of two other units, can’t hit Air units, can attack the next territory without moving there, can do ‘reverse bombardment’ during an amphibious invasion’?

I don’t know the answer to those questions. But I’d love to hear what others have to say about that.

-Midnight_Reaper

@SS:

Im not trying to knock any of your thoughts. You may only get a few replies if that. No body really has the H Art in there game. I gave you my values from one of the 39 games that I have.

Now maybe IL or Baron might chime in and give you there idea what a H Art values should be. I just think for what you want the piece to do is the cost is to low.

Put in your game and play test it. Thats the way I find out if it works or not.

I’ve played with these rules before, but only against novice players or in solo games. Perhaps I should look into setting up a TripleA scenario with all of these rules as options. Then people could try what they want to try out and let me know how it turned out. I think it’s good as-is, but I’m biased so I’m looking for other opinion.

@SS:

You try typing in the search bar Heavy Artilliary?

I’ve tried to do that but Google gives me an error code when I try that. I use Firefox with a custom NoScript load that doesn’t normally let Google Analytics in, so I should probably try again with that enabled to see what happens. (The things you think about when answering someone else’s question that you didn’t think about before - part of why I’m throwing these rules out there for people to poke holes in.)

-Midnight_Reaper

@Imperious:

Heavy Artillery:

C6 A3 D2 M1  +1 support 1-1 per inf. Can fire into next territory but then can only M1 on non combat. Or move 1 in combat but doesn’t get next territory shot. You could have If you roll a 1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire. Cant hit planes period.

Yes to all these ideas especially in bold, except allow it to move in combat only if with either a truck unit ( if you play with those) or Armored Infantry ( Mech). Only other idea is not allow the shot from adjacent area, which i reserve only to gigantic rail guns.

Hello Imperious Leader, thanks for joining us.

I am personally biased against rules that let the player scoring the hit pick the unit taking the hit, but that’s me. I can certainly see the thematic appropriateness when used with lots of big guns. What do you think of the following version of Big Guns for A&A?

@Defensive-Minded:

Unit Name    IPC Cost ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Heavy Artillery    6      2    3      1    Can only hit Ground Units (exception for Coastal Defense special attack). Can increase defense for Infantry, etc., defense by support. See below for Coastal Defense rules.

Heavy Artillery - The King of Battle. These are the truly big guns, massed to support the main effort of an army. These are not anti-aircraft guns and therefore can not hit aircraft. Can provide supporting fire for Infantry and any other Infantry-like units in the defense, increasing their Defense by 1. This support can be provided for up to one (1) supported units per each Heavy Artillery unit in the defending territory and is in addition to the Heavy Artillery’s own defense roll. Can also conduct Coastal Defense - See below for more.

Coastal Defense: Support the defense of the territory the Heavy Artillery unit is located, in the face of an Amphibious Invasion. As Battleships get to conduct shore bombardment to “soften up” the defensive forces prior to the actual landing of troops, Heavy Artillery units get to conduct Coastal Defense to help repel the attacking force. Each Heavy Artillery unit in the territory that is being invaded gets to fire one time at the Transports carrying the attacking force. On a roll of a 1, one Transport is sunk and its cargo is lost at sea before the units on-board can land anywhere. A decision as to which transports are carrying what cargo should ideally be made before prior to rolling the Coastal Defense attack. Heavy Artillery can conduct Coastal Defense whether or not any shore bombardment is conducted on behalf of the Amphibious Invasion. Heavy Artillery that has used its Coastal Defense attack may take part in the further defense of its territory.

Coastal Defense is an interesting ability in my opinion, a reverse Amphibious Bombardment. While it can be used against an Amphibious Invasion even if it was not supported by an Amphibious Bombardment, it does not come into play when a territory is attacked only from land or sky. Because it only comes into play against an Amphibious Invasion, and only if the defending territory has Heavy Artillery to defend with, this is an ability that may only be used twice or thrice a game. Whether that makes any difference about how potent is this special ability is an open question in my mind.

-Midnight_Reaper

@Imperious:

1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire

Try it one of two ways:

1. what we call a “call shot” pick land unit as loss
2. alternatively if you roll a one, defender chooses loss and that unit cant fire back

you will like one of these options

I would have to try them out before I could give a full opinion of them. My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules? Is this a new addition to the meta of house rules here? Submarines have pretty much also fought this way, but I’ve previously seen proposed house rules for Tac Bombers to ‘pick their hit on 1’. Is this becoming a thing?

Should I start a new thread to ask about the popularity and usefulness of ‘pick your hit on 1’ critical strike rules?

-Midnight_Reaper

@SS:

@Midnight_Reaper:

@Imperious:

1 on Attack roll you pick the target with no return fire

Try it one of two ways:

1. what we call a “call shot” pick land unit as loss
2. alternatively if you roll a one, defender chooses loss and that unit cant fire back

you will like one of these options

I would have to try them out before I could give a full opinion of them. My question to you is: why the emphasis on ‘pick the hit unit on 1’ rules? Is this a new addition to the meta of house rules here? Submarines have pretty much also fought this way, but I’ve previously seen proposed house rules for Tac Bombers to ‘pick their hit on 1’. Is this becoming a thing?

Should I start a new thread to ask about the popularity and usefulness of ‘pick your hit on 1’ critical strike rules?

-Midnight_Reaper

I have in my WW2 40 game Tac (Dive) bombers  D12   A7 D4 M4 C10 roll a 2 or less on A and D can pick target with no return shot for ground and naval. The 2 or less roll hit is for more of a accurate shot on a piece. So I use the Tac as a 2 different scenario.

Also in one of my 39 games there are Dive Bombers and Naval Figs that can pick the target on a 4 (Dive) or 1 (Fig) but the defender still gets a return shot while the attacker gets to pick the piece.
Pretty much these pieces are in just the 39 games and anybody that has housed ruled there game (G40 OOB) but just a few if any. From what I’ve seen posted on site anyway.

It must have been your Tac Bomber rules that I read. It just seems like the idea of “He shoots, he scores, he crits, he picks the casualty!” has become something I’ve noticed of late. As I’ve said before, I’m not a big fan of that idea in the abstract, but I will admit to really needing to try it out for real before I can truly say that I don’t like it at all.

-Midnight_Reaper