whats wrong is: no limitations on builds creates armies of flying airborne used like aircraft and costing 5 IPC. Players will make armies of these suckers and take the entire airforce and kill anything built behind the lines every turn and turn the game into buck Rodgers. This is nothing like WW2 and a mockery of warfare….all because its not balanced.
Think of it as 5 IPC fighters attacking at two. Now it becomes the old rehash of: 2 destroyers or 1 Battleship and people buying airborne as ‘aircraft’…for 5 IPC
You NEED limits based on capacity to transport and the unit that best fits this mold is the bomber.
Second thing is if you lose your capital you never get it back, because the capturing player just buys tons of airborne and retakes UK or Moscow or Berlin by dropping them in faster than moving tanks or transporting by sea. It imbalances the game.
when my friends and I play, our rule is a bomber can drop one infantry as a paratrooper, and if you have heavy bombers you can drop 2 INF or 1 ART or 1 ARM. if you use a bomber as a carrier, it can’t bomb that turn. I’ve used this to capture Stalingrad, Iceland, and India on different occasions. It also helps you get behind enemy lines and break defenses
MadMc, I have thought about using the heavy bomber as extra cargo capacity. A regular bomber drops 1 bomb & 1 para oob rules. HB drops 2 bombs & para, or 1 bomb & 2 para.Maybe only allow bombs to drop 1st wave of battle when carrying ground units or paratroopers. You can also load up to 6 ipc worth of ground units, 2 inf,1art,1arm,or 1AA gun. The bomber/ air transport would have to land and unload on friendly soil. Only inf can paratroop. Not sure if you should allow bomber to attack (1 bomb dice) when it is carrying ground units other then paratroopers. Also thought about allowing bomber/ air transport to be used to lend lease ipc’s to Russia or China. I’m not sure if I like using a bomber this way or if we really need an air transport unit as talked about before. How did the games you played work out. Was it used a lot. Did it affect the out come, and balance. WB
i don’t have a problem with bombers (HB or otherwise) also representing transport aircraft for paratroopers, provided they are not allowed to bomb ALSO. without a specific transport piece they just have to represent more than bombers, like current armor units represents more than just tanks…
limits, whether per turn or per number of bombers sounds fine. I’m sure someone would buy 30 at once, but at least if you saw the buildup you had some balance of warning.
i would think air transports of ART could not drop with paratroops, but could certainly move to friendly territories…
Getting back to the new inf units, or special forces(SF). Cost $4. Maybe allow upgrade of inf for $1 call it training. Pay for upgrades in purch units phase get them during mob units phase @ IC. Give them +1 on attack for the 1st round of battle only. Could be preempt so enemy casualties don’t fire back. I think selective hits would be to much for $4. This could symbolize Commandos, Marines, or Imperial banzai etc. You could also extend +1 to defense for 1st round only to represent Atlantic wall, dug in defenders or just boost the def of a capital. These units could still get support from art oob rules. Could limit SF to the amount given to us (no chips). These SF could be used as paratroopers w/ bombers oob. You could however buy fly tokens instead. Tokens would be $1 each. Think of the SF unit as you would any other air unit when it flies. The further you want to go the more $ it costs with a max of 3 tokens per SF unit. You could attach fly tokens to the SF unit in order to use it or keep them @ your capital. If stored @ capital you could use them for any SF unit giving it the element of surprise. Once you use a fly token its done you must re-buy them. You could also use fly tokens to move regular inf or SF in non combat, but only SF unit can be used as a paratrooper in an attack. Maybe allow movement of other ground units @ 2x cost?
Example 1: Say Germany has 5 SF on East Poland through purchases or upgrades (cost $20).
It wants to attack Moscow 2 spaces away. To fly them in would cost $2 each ($10). If those SF were on Warsaw cost to fly them in would be $3. each ($15)
Example 2: Say Germany has 5 SF on France through purchases or upgrades($20 invested). It wants to attack the UK 2 spaces away across English Chanel. To fly them in would be $2 each ($10). Total spent for attack =30 ipc’s.
Cost of an air transport would be around $8 (IL) with limited cargo, but you could use it over & over again. Air tokens could limit themselves depending on where you wanted to go because of cost. You could also place a limit on them, or link them to the # of air units you have as discussed earlier. Island hopping would be expensive at $3 per guy. Maybe you could base them off an AC.
The best way to represent Air tranports in with a chip you put under a paratooper unit to show it is ready to be paradroped up to 2 spaces away. After the paradrop you can save the air transport chip and put it next to your tech tokens and equip it to an infantry unit or paratooper unit. If it is equiped to an infatry unit it can only be transported 3 spaces to a friendly territory and with research you can get heavy tranports which can transport an artillery or tank.
transport chips are also subject to AA fire.
I dont like having a tranport peice because they are really big and take up space but they dont even kill anything. If I were to add a new air unit it would something that kills stuf like a Heavey Bomber/Jet fighter/ light bomber/torpedo bomber
yes we don’t need a piece for transport… just a token thats stocked in your home territory ( capital). These planes should not even be able to be killed and if they are left in some faraway territory and its taken you just stick it back in your home. Just limit the total number of transports so we don’t get the “flying shock armies scenario” ala buck Rodgers.
The reason I said air transports should be subject to AA fire is that I remember reading that the Germans lost alot at Crete and that ended up hurt them in Russia.
Yes and once they were gone Germany could not replace them because the specialized training required, a small fraction of what was left was used in Dec 44, but these were scraps. This means limitations must be in the rules to limit quantities.
So, how do you suggest transport chips are destoyed?
And why not just price tranports right so flying armies are impractical? Did tranport planes really require more speacilized training than aircraft carriers?
they should be destroyed only if you lose your capital. Transport planes are not military planes and the enemy does not have fighters patrolling vast tracts of enemy territory looking for planes to shoot down. Transports are infrastructure.
flying armies should be limited to transport tokens and the transports should cost like at least the price of a ocean transport
I think perhaps 12 IPC is fair.
@Imperious:
they should be destroyed only if you lose your capital. Transport planes are not military planes and the enemy does not have fighters patrolling vast tracts of enemy territory looking for planes to shoot down. Transports are infrastructure.
flying armies should be limited to transport tokens and the transports should cost like at least the price of a ocean transport
I think perhaps 12 IPC is fair.
yes, 12 dose seem fair if they allow are allowed to transport a paratooper 2 spaces for an attack, and can transport infantry 3 spaces in the non combat.
but like i said earlier, transport planes should be subject to AA fire becasue they were on Crete to a point that it hurt the German later on in the war.
ok subject to AA fire, but not destroyable unless you take the capital. So these are kept and stocked in home territory and just placed as players see fit to drop off whatnot, then in NCM they go back home.
so all are destoyed if you take the capital, but they can also be shot down by AA guns?
yes right. AA gun hits normally and if Germany buys like 5 of them and Berlin falls they all go away like transports.
Trucks would be basically extra movement points allowing for increased movement. These points could be bombed like SBR and reduced.
air transport costs say 12 and land transport ( trucks) costs 6?
the trucks unit ‘buys’ 6 movement points each, so 6 units can move 2 spaces, or 3 units can move 2 spaces, or one can move 6. Each SBR point can be elected to go against this value and once the SBR hits reach 6, then you remove one truck piece. That seems clear and simple.
Maybe trucks coluld be an off board abtraction of the overall motorization of your army. Right next to your tech chips you would put the trucks you have purchased. Each truck costs 12 IPCs and allows you to make addtional attacks after your first combat phase. Each truck allows you to attack again with 3 infantry/artllery or 5 tanks/fighters/bombers even if these units have already battled. For the second attack tanks have a movement of 1 and aircraft of 3.You do not lose the trucks each time you use them and you can buy more of them each turn. You do lose one truck for battles in the second attack phase for every 5 units the enemy kills, but only if you lose the battle.
I think 12 IPC’s is pretty costly, but that is becasue it is a special investment and is not neccisarily purchased every game by every country.
I think this should be the rules for trucks
but yours sounds good too, and yours is easy to understand.
well air transports allow combat or NCM transport over water and zones 6 spaces away for 12 IPC
Land transport allows NCM transport over only land technically up to 6 movement points for 6 IPC
The value of traveling over the sea and ability to drop in combat is a value of 6 IPC additional over the truck. I see both as easy to integrate. The air transport can get shot down by AA guns, and the enemy can allocate his SBR points to bombing of additional truck movement points. Everything looks very clear and functional and crisp.
@Imperious:
Everything looks very clear and functional and crisp.
I agree
Ok a couple of things here. 1st are you doing away with the paratrooper tech? Or are these new invisible air buses only allowed to move troops in non combat until you develop paratroopers. 2nd for 12 ipc why not just use the oob rules and buy a bomber to paratroop. Then make a house rule that bombers can be used as air transport in non combat. Then you could at least use the bomber as a bomber later. Not sure I would pay for a bomber and not get the full use of it. I think I would rather pay a smaller one time fee per unit with limited range. If you were paying 2-3 ipc per unit depending on distance traveled cost alone should prevent abuse. If you wanted to transport 3 inf from Italy to Libya (2 spaces) cost $2 each or $6 From Italy to Egypt (3 spaces) $3 each or $9. You could charge an extra $1 for the 1st sz if you want. I would still purchase chips in beginning of your turn and mob them at the end, at least as the enemy you would see it coming. It would be like a supply token you don’t get to keep it forever, your paying for fuel. I also think you should have to develop PT or use one of the new inf molds at a higher cost (training) if not playing with tech. Just my 2 cents.
Actually we are still in configuration mode and sleep gives me a fresh idea:
Two new concepts:
Idea #1
Now this only applies to Land and Air units, but for naval your only allowed to move a naval unit from one Sea Zone to a Sea Zone adjacent to a Land Territory you control since the start of your turn. This last idea would be in place if ports are not being played otherwise its from one port to another.
Examples: the UK ships south of Australia are no longer useless ships if UK allocates them to move to India using SR points.
Germany send in tanks in Caucasus in combat and all infantry get lost and none can reinforce, so Germany spends 8 SR to move 2 tanks back 2 spaces.
Idea #2
2)Trucks: cost 3 IPC each and defend at 1 and can be placed in any area and moved to any area as long as its connected to your home (capital) territory.
Since trucks no longer really seem to fit the idea in item 1 you can alternatively buy trucks for 3 IPC each and you place these in areas you control and any LAND units moving into this area can boost movement by one space. Example: infantry in Germany move into Poland, except Poland has a truck…so the infantry enters Poland and can move one more space to any territory adjacent to Poland. Each truck can only be used for one land unit, so if you got a ‘chain’ of three trucks ( one each) over three spaces, you can shuck a man 3 spaces.
now players will establish chains of these logistical (red ball express) and the enemy will try to kill these chains by attacking point in the middle and since they defend at 1, they will have to be protected by AA guns or other units.
This models the real war in the most easy way possible and is much superior than my last idea.
