Lets Talk Paratroopers!

[Imperious Leader]

Say they roll for a 1 or 2 and hit, then the defender’s units defend at -1 for the first round due to paratrooper disruption.

So do they kill a unit now or disrupt it and reduce its combat effectiveness?

Secondly, if its #2 how do they ever kill units?

[LuckyDay]

@Imperious:

Say they roll for a 1 or 2 and hit, then the defender’s units defend at -1 for the first round due to paratrooper disruption.

So do they kill a unit now or disrupt it and reduce its combat effectiveness?

Secondly, if its #2 how do they ever kill units?

my thought would be that they roll to disrupt multiple units, then they roll with the rest of the attack force and would attack as normal INF.

So, #2 to disrupt, and they also roll to kill units.

[Imperious Leader]

But that means they cant be dropped independently on islands or 2 land territories away. This makes them not historical and less value in the game than before. IN that case id stick with OOB because they at least have a fighting chance.

[LuckyDay]

i don’t follow, how does that mean they can’t be dropped independantly?  My thought was that they actually help the entire attack force, considering they usually were dropped in concert with additional attackers.

if they were dropped on an island by themselves, they would roll to disrupt the defenders, on say a 3 or less, which would mean that the defenders if 2 INF and 1 ART would all 3 defend on a 1.  Then the Paratroops would attack as normal and the defenders would also.

If the ptroops attacked at a 3 for the 1st round they’d likely get a hit.  if they attacked preemptively at 2 they have a decent chance.  if they attack as normal INF they have the least chance, yes, BUT… if they were attacking with other troops at the same time it would actually be the defenders who have only a small chance of getting a hit.

Even if I got a preemptive strike with ptroops, I wouldn’t attack on that particular island with just them.  May not be the best example, but a possibility.  I think about Sicily–There were more than twice as many Axis troops defending as Allied attacking and Patton’s paratroops went it first, I don’t remember hearing much in the way of what they destroyed so much as how they disrupted the Axis counter attack the next day by being forward enough to call in naval bombardment and such to take out tank columns coming to Gela.

I suppose if they were disrupting at 3 or less, if they rolled a one, they could destroy something too, but it seems that often the idea of bettering units is to +1  them, seems like ptroops could be a good time to -1 something, give them a varied roll. 
Aaaahh, i just looked at the OOB rules, and ptroops only gives bombers the ability to carry INF, they get no bonus, so I must have said something confusing earlier, my bad.
  my thought was to use the new INF as ptroops, give them the same ability as OOB, but add that they can also have a negative effect on defenders.   Still, if it’s not a great idea, it was just an idea, just trying to contribute and all…

on the side of upping ptroops attack I’d be in favor of it in addition to lowering defenders, but for set time limit, for a whole battle may be too powerful.

[Imperious Leader]

ok i understand. They can operate alone, Its just if they hit one defending unit rolls at -1. Thats it.

[Black Fox]

Unfortunately I’ve been too busy to reply to this thread recently.

For the most part I am about 95% in agreement with IL.

Paratrooper were shock troops and not commando.  I agreed with a 2 or 3 attack value for the first round only to represent suprise/shock value and possibly reduce those units before a counter attack like a sub.  After that they operate as standard infantry.

Sorry ET, an attack value of “0” is simply a non-starter with me.  I appreciate your passionate argument but I feel it simply would not make the unit playable in A&A.  I think IL has made several excellent arguments as to why this won’t work.

One idea that I might entertain is that when AB units operate on their own, they have a defense value of 1 against armor.  But when operating with standard infantry unit, they operate as normal infantry.  However, this means creating a way to be able to identify AB units through out the game, such as a marker or a special AB piece.

I also like Lucky Days idea of reducing the enemy’s ability to counter attack (for the first round only)

I do not agree with paratroopers being able to selectively eliminate any particular unit.  This would disrupt the balance of play in AA.

I strongly disagree with using any aircraft pieces to transport AB unit.  In my opinion, the extra cost for AB units is so that they use an airborne attack without using other aircraft.  Ideally, if we had a transport aircraft that could be purchase.  This would solve all movement issue and prevent over buying of such unit.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Black:

I appreciate your passionate argument

your welcome

and yes the main thing is the quiet obvious fact that airborne soldiers are not transported by bombers.

[Black Fox]

Out of curiosity.  If there were an air transport aircraft what do you think the value and stats should be?

Here is my idea.

IPC  10
Att  0
Def  0
Range 4 (maybe 6?)

Can carry 1 infantry or 1 artillery.

Can deliver 1 infantry for airborne assault.

[Emperor_Taiki]

i dont like units that dont kill things, you should just pay to do airborne attacks, then put a little chip under paratoopers to show they are equipped for an airborne assault

[Imperious Leader]

I revise my airborne rule:

These are new units costing 5 IPC, move 1

On first round they are 2-2 units (preemptive) and 1-2 units after that. You can only drop as many Airborne as you have bombers and follow all OOB rules.

Air transport:

if you get such a unit it cant be an attacking unit. it just has to be a air transport (like a transport for air)

IPC  8
Att  0
Def  0
Range 4

takes one art or one infantry ( mech, airborne, or regular)

must have a zero defense because that wont make it a cheap soaker. If its attacked and its alone in the space they are destroyed like transports alone in SZ.

[Black Fox]

You can only drop as many Airborne as you have bombers and follow all OOB rules.

IL are you also implying that they have to be delivered by Bombers or you can only buy as many as bombers as you have?

Also, what are OOB rules?

Thanks

[Imperious Leader]

OOB is out of the box rules

Also, if the new pieces dont include a transport plane, the airborne have to be limited to something or Germany will try Sealion and buy a million airborne ( perhaps by saving 10 IPC a turn for 5 turns, then landing like 30 of these out of the blue) anytime UK forgets to leave 30 infantry to defend. This creates lame playing conditions like some kind of ICBM threat. Plus the bombers limit the capabilities of these elite troops and place some limits on huge flying armies against capitals. I have played house with this and what im saying does happen and it ruins the game and turns WW2 into some kind of buck rogers thing.

[Emperor_Taiki]

NO BOMBERS TRANSPORTING SOLDIERS! THAT IS JUST STUPID!

[Imperious Leader]

They are not doing it physically. Its just that im representing the total glider and transport forces as limited by the total bombers because we have no other corresponding unit that fits. You have to have some limits because these elite trained forces are hard to produce it takes time and they dont fly like birds… they need planes and not fighters…

[Emperor_Taiki]

whats wrong with just paying ipcs

[Imperious Leader]

whats wrong is: no limitations on builds creates armies of flying airborne used like aircraft and costing 5 IPC. Players will make armies of these suckers and take the entire airforce and kill anything built behind the lines every turn and turn the game into buck Rodgers. This is nothing like WW2 and a mockery of warfare….all because its not balanced.

Think of it as 5 IPC fighters attacking at two. Now it becomes the old rehash of: 2 destroyers or 1 Battleship and people buying airborne as ‘aircraft’…for 5 IPC

You NEED limits based on capacity to transport and the unit that best fits this mold is the bomber.

Second thing is if you lose your capital you never get it back, because the capturing player just buys tons of airborne and retakes UK or Moscow or Berlin by dropping them in faster than moving tanks or transporting by sea. It imbalances the game.

[MadMc]

when my friends and I play, our rule is a bomber can drop one infantry as a paratrooper, and if you have heavy bombers you can drop 2 INF or 1 ART or 1 ARM. if you use a bomber as a carrier, it can’t bomb that turn. I’ve used this to capture Stalingrad, Iceland, and India on different occasions. It also helps you get behind enemy lines and break defenses

[WILD BILL]

MadMc, I have thought about using the heavy bomber as extra cargo capacity. A regular bomber drops 1 bomb & 1 para oob rules. HB drops 2 bombs & para, or 1 bomb & 2 para.Maybe only allow bombs to drop 1st wave of battle when carrying ground units or paratroopers. You can also load up to 6 ipc worth of ground units, 2 inf,1art,1arm,or 1AA gun. The bomber/ air transport would have to land and unload on friendly soil. Only inf can paratroop. Not sure if you should allow bomber to attack (1 bomb dice) when it is carrying ground units other then paratroopers. Also thought about allowing bomber/ air transport to be used to lend lease ipc’s to Russia or China. I’m not sure if I like using a bomber this way or if we really need an air transport unit as talked about before. How did the games you played work out. Was it used a lot. Did it affect the out come, and balance.  WB

[LuckyDay]

i don’t have a problem with bombers (HB or otherwise) also representing transport aircraft for paratroopers, provided they are not allowed to bomb ALSO.  without a specific transport piece they just have to represent more than bombers, like current armor units represents more than just tanks…

limits, whether per turn or per number of bombers sounds fine.  I’m sure someone would buy 30 at once, but at least if you saw the buildup you had some balance of warning.

i would think air transports of ART could not drop with paratroops, but could certainly move to friendly territories…

[WILD BILL]

Getting back to the new inf units, or special forces(SF). Cost $4. Maybe allow upgrade of inf for $1 call it training. Pay for upgrades in purch units phase get them during mob units phase @ IC. Give them +1 on attack for the 1st round of battle only. Could be preempt so enemy casualties don’t fire back. I think selective hits would be to much for $4. This could symbolize Commandos, Marines, or Imperial banzai etc. You could also extend +1 to defense for 1st round only to represent Atlantic wall, dug in defenders or just boost the def of a capital. These units could still get support from art oob rules. Could limit SF to the amount given to us (no chips). These SF could be used as paratroopers w/ bombers oob. You could however buy fly tokens instead. Tokens would be $1 each. Think of the SF unit as you would any other air unit when it flies. The further you want to go the more $ it costs with a max of 3 tokens per SF unit. You could attach fly tokens to the SF unit in order to use it or keep them @ your capital. If stored @ capital you could use them for any SF unit giving it the element of surprise. Once you use a fly token its done you must re-buy them. You could also use fly tokens to move regular inf or SF in non combat, but only SF unit can be used as a paratrooper in an attack. Maybe allow movement of other ground units @ 2x cost?
Example 1: Say Germany has 5 SF on East Poland through purchases or upgrades (cost $20).
It wants to attack Moscow 2 spaces away. To fly them in would cost $2 each ($10). If those SF were on Warsaw cost to fly them in would be $3. each ($15)

Example 2: Say Germany has 5 SF on France through purchases or upgrades($20 invested). It wants to attack the UK 2 spaces away across English Chanel. To fly them in would be $2 each ($10). Total spent for attack =30 ipc’s.
Cost of an air transport would be around $8 (IL) with limited cargo, but you could use it over & over again. Air tokens could limit themselves depending on where you wanted to go because of cost. You could also place a limit on them, or link them to the # of air units you have as discussed earlier. Island hopping would be expensive at $3 per guy. Maybe you could base them off an AC.