How to achieve balance

@Subotai:

I don’t like the concept of “closed bid systems”.
I like open bids, i.e. you can place any unit where you want, but preferably one unit pr.TT, and only on the TTs which you already own, except maybe in Libya, b/c Germany has already 2 infs in Libya.

If someone wants to restrict the bids, other than 1 unit pr.TT and on TT’s which are already owned by the start of the game, then they want to change the game, not the balance.

If I want to change the game I would not start with the bid system.

Why are you commenting in this thread?

You don’t like a bid system to change the game, "nerfing the NOs is unacceptable ", you haven’t tried the optional rules but from your post it appears you wouldn’t like them either….

perhaps you can offer your insight (I missed it earlier in the previous 6 pages of this thread)?

If any bid is necessary I would bid for American ships off of western USA. A bid elsewhere will favor a KGIF.

I really think it is important have the USA fight in the pacific. I’m not saying 100% builds in pacific, but why can’t USA fight in both theatres like in our history books? If you force the Americans to fight in the pacific you get a more interesting game. But right now, as the rules and setup stands, as Allies I am going KGIF every time. That means I play defensively in Pacific theatre as USA. But that is not what happen in history. America was very aggresive in the pacific. Why can’t this game simulate that? Change NOs for USA to all be in Pacific and even possibly put another DD or Cruiser in WUSA. More incentive to fight there and less KGIF strategies.

@axis_roll:

Why are you commenting in this thread?

To participate in an exchange of ideas of several different possibilities on how to balance AA50

You don’t like a bid system to change the game, "nerfing the NOs is unacceptable ", you haven’t tried the optional rules but from your post it appears you wouldn’t like them either….

I have said many times, that when discussing balance, imo, the best premise is to change the game as little as possible. I have tried the first two of the optional rules, but not the Dardanelles closing and SBR interceptors. Actually I think both Dardanelles closing and interceptors can be fun, but it’s unlikely that these options will achieve a balance as good as cash bids and unit bids.
It’s not much more different when I’m commenting on some game changes which is house rules. Many like to use house rules, but the premise for this thread is balance, and not house rules modifications.
Many players think it’s an unacceptable change to use LL instead of ADS, not for balance, but for fun.
I think not. I don’t mind house rules or discussing house rules, except I don’t use house rules myself, probably same reasons why many players don’t like LL, or tech etc.
Why not call it house rules when it is house rules, cash and unit bids are not considered house rules by most players, b/c bids are a necessary evil. What I’d wish is if someone came up with a bid system which changes the game as little as possible, even less than unit bids and cash bids, which still can bring the same balance as cash/unit bids can. Or perhaps someone can offer some insight of how/why cash/units or other bid systems changes the game less than other solutions. I have several opinions on how the game should be changed to the better, but when I’m discussing balance, the only change which should be considered is that both sides should have equal chance of winning.

perhaps you can offer your insight (I missed it earlier in the previous 6 pages of this thread)?

I hope Larry Harris can offer some insight, I posted a question on his website.

I don’t consider bids “changing the game”, only make it playable by balancing both sides.

By changing any rules, or adding anything other than the absolute minimum needed for balancing, then we moved from game balance to house rules and custom modifications. These issues are not the same. If someone make their own mods, I can download these mods and play them in TripleA.

I don’t see any problem with me pointing out that we should discuss house rules and custom mods in separate threads, the name of this thread is “how to achieve balance”, not “how to change the game mechanism from KGF to KJF”, or “how to make an AA50-power-China-mod”…

@Flying:

If any bid is necessary I would bid for American ships off of western USA. A bid elsewhere will favor a KGIF.

I really think it is important have the USA fight in the pacific. I’m not saying 100% builds in pacific, but why can’t USA fight in both theatres like in our history books? If you force the Americans to fight in the pacific you get a more interesting game. But right now, as the rules and setup stands, as Allies I am going KGIF every time. That means I play defensively in Pacific theatre as USA. But that is not what happen in history. America was very aggresive in the pacific. Why can’t this game simulate that? Change NOs for USA to all be in Pacific and even possibly put another DD or Cruiser in WUSA. More incentive to fight there and less KGIF strategies.

In the real WW2, US spent approx. 85% of resources against Germany.
A game where KJF is more powerful than KGIF is less historical correct then the current AAR and AA50 setups, which favors KGF as most effective.

@Subotai:

@Flying:

If any bid is necessary I would bid for American ships off of western USA. A bid elsewhere will favor a KGIF.

I really think it is important have the USA fight in the pacific. I’m not saying 100% builds in pacific, but why can’t USA fight in both theatres like in our history books? If you force the Americans to fight in the pacific you get a more interesting game. But right now, as the rules and setup stands, as Allies I am going KGIF every time. That means I play defensively in Pacific theatre as USA. But that is not what happen in history. America was very aggresive in the pacific. Why can’t this game simulate that? Change NOs for USA to all be in Pacific and even possibly put another DD or Cruiser in WUSA. More incentive to fight there and less KGIF strategies.

In the real WW2, US spent approx. 85% of resources against Germany.
A game where KJF is more powerful than KGIF is less historical correct then the current AAR and AA50 setups, which favors KGF as most effective.

Okay, but in a KGF, America usually spends 0% in the Pacific, not 15-20% (I think the # was closer to 80/20 than 85/15, but you may be right.)  Some players want to force the US to NOT spend 100% for KGF and 0% in the Pacific which is also NOT HISTORICAL.

A ignore Japan game is more ahistorical than a balanced game. A KGF leads to a Japan not only greater than Germany, but greater than USA  :-o, and even worst, a Japan than can (and should) invade mainland America

For the ignore China strats, as someone said, China is very valuable for japs. It has:

• Territories for a value of 13 IPCs (including Kwantung)
• One NO to lost (maybe two, remember Kwantung) -> 5-10 IPCs more
• A good spot for a IC (Manchuria)

Any “ignore” someone strats should be prevented, because the ignored one could not ignore you. Another thing that we should do, balance or not, and for prevent the igonre China, is ignore that Acme style frontier that chineses have -> let chineses exit from China. Acme frontier leads to many gamebugs like bombers merrily sitting in FIC inf front of chinese units, italians happily menacing chinese rear from Khazakstan and such  :|

@Subotai:

@Flying:

If any bid is necessary I would bid for American ships off of western USA. A bid elsewhere will favor a KGIF.

I really think it is important have the USA fight in the pacific. I’m not saying 100% builds in pacific, but why can’t USA fight in both theatres like in our history books? If you force the Americans to fight in the pacific you get a more interesting game. But right now, as the rules and setup stands, as Allies I am going KGIF every time. That means I play defensively in Pacific theatre as USA. But that is not what happen in history. America was very aggresive in the pacific. Why can’t this game simulate that? Change NOs for USA to all be in Pacific and even possibly put another DD or Cruiser in WUSA. More incentive to fight there and less KGIF strategies.

In the real WW2, US spent approx. 85% of resources against Germany.
A game where KJF is more powerful than KGIF is less historical correct then the current AAR and AA50 setups, which favors KGF as most effective.

I didn’t say anything about a KJF strategy. All I would like to see is a game where it is beneficial for America to fight in both theatres. This would be a more historical game and way more fun. Instead we have a game of 100% builds towards a KGF strategy. I don’t think there is much of a balance problem, still a toss up on who wins the war.  But if I am Japan I can send much of my fleet to the Med and the allies are not sinking the combined fleet of Italy and Japan for many rounds. IMO this is the best counter for a KGF strategy. Italy can do alot of damage to Africa and the middle east , not to mention caucus. If you Use Japan to attack Alaska to take pressure off of a KGF you are wasting your time. You have to go big for that and if you do you lose Asia and the war. Sure you can counter the KGF but there is not enough action in the pacific which IMO is undesirable.

@Flying:

If you Use Japan to attack Alaska to take pressure off of a KGF you are wasting your time. You have to go big for that and if you do you lose Asia and the war

Who can steal Asia to Japan if they attack Alaska?

-China? The one killed round 1 due to bugged setup and rules?
-USA? The one who went to a KGF?

• UK? They cannot hold India much time. As much, they could halt japan in Persia, but that’s not a real problem since axis will have economic advantage. Japan has resources to attack both India and Alaska
• Soviets? Now Japan has greater buffer zones in japanese-puppet China and Siberia than in Revised and soviets have a much stonger euro-axis than last time. It will give allies too few and distract valuable soviet units from german front

No, Japan will not lose Asia in case of Polar Express. They could even take part of Africa

What is the objective of Polar Express, besides threatening an NO?

I can see hitting North America on a limited scale if there’s an opportunity to take an NO away from the USA.  But this seems unlikely provided USA has at least one infantry on Western USA.

The cost (diverting resources needed to take down Moscow quickly) seems too high for too little reward.

what is the polar express?  (i have always assumed it was japan trying to take moscow via siberia)

china mod where china goes, then the “real” game starts, finishing with usa then start again with china

Vegryn, I thought the same as you first time I came across the term.  I understand it means attacking the US through alaska.

I agree with Zhukov - Japan’s resources are much better sent to moscow.  Japan doesn’t have an income ratio sufficient to actually take the US (you’re looking at 60 to 45 or so) and no decent US player will let you actually snatch Los Angeles.  At best you slow down an american advance on europe, but at an equal (or most likely greater) cost to Japan’s advance on moscow.

Japan’s attack through Caucasus is much more effective in this version (meaning Japan’s money is “worth more” than the US’s).  With factories in India, Sumatra, Burma (and optionally FIC) you can have 9-11 ground troops popping up right on russia’s doorstep.  You can quickly overwhelm them.  America is relatively further from Europe - they can only shuck troops on transports which is less efficient than Japan’s mainland factories.

That south asia romp for Japan is powerful in AA50.

My gaming group pretty much only plays 1941, NO’s, no tech.  AXIS wins pretty much all the time by now.  Funny thing is we mostly like to play allies for the challenge, but barring really, really, really, really bad axis rolls first turn we feel they are going to win.
  Japan is going to reduce china to 3 provinces first turn and really start to roll with its NO’s.  Nobody wastes much time on polar express except as an annoying throw away attack while they push russia with new ICs and armor.  I’d like to see some more really viable allies strategies here but it seems to us that if germany keeps a decent airforce going the allies have to invest to much in defensive shipping to keep their fleets alive and putting that many points into defensive shipping slows down the KGF that russia is going down to a japanese 60-70 IPC , Germany 50+ IPC and annoying Italian push.

@Telamon:

Vegryn, I thought the same as you first time I came across the term.  I understand it means attacking the US through alaska.

I agree with Zhukov - Japan’s resources are much better sent to moscow.  Japan doesn’t have an income ratio sufficient to actually take the US (you’re looking at 60 to 45 or so) and no decent US player will let you actually snatch Los Angeles.  At best you slow down an american advance on europe, but at an equal (or most likely greater) cost to Japan’s advance on moscow.

You are right: Polar Express is a serious, prolongued jap attack in mainland America by Alaska. The objetive is countering KGF

Here is the idea: USA, ignoring Japan, is conceding a whole theater, the Pacific Ocean, thus ceding Japan the iniciative. Japan now can play USA’s game going KJTDTM (thus backing the iniciative to USA, also conceding American theater) or make a full attack on America

The goal is not taking LA. If you manage it, better. But the menace of doing this or facing losing ala+wcan, thus maybe forcing a trade of ecan and cusa, is enough to forcing USA stop KGF and focus in defense. Now, USA cannot afford send more troops to Africa or Europe until the beat the invassion (a thing that could need 3 or more rounds is done right)

Japan, even in Revised, but much more in AA50, will have enough resources to make both Polar Express and also spare some forces to Africa. UK has to do a choice: fighting to preserve african income or help soviets in Europe (both without USA’s help). If they choose defend Africa, Western Axis will toast soviets. If they choose Europe, Japan will conquer Africa and Axis will have the economic advantage even if USA manages expulse the jap invaders in America.

The hidden agenda with Polar Express is win by economic superiority: soon or later, soviets or USA will colapse due pure numbers (probably will be soviets)

I have tested this strat in Revised in league games and I got better results than my initial games with JTDTM. Since Japan in AA50 is a true monster and euro-axis is also much greater, while allies earn only a bit more than in Revised and Japan gets 4 more trannies than in Revised in J1, the economic teory says that in AA50 Polar Express will be more powerful than in Revised

But it’s even worst: in revised, you could send rogue soviet forces to annoy Japan’s rear in China and Siberia and try recover the iniciative. In AA50, China and Siberia are greater, and the longer distances act as a buffer zone from those annoying attacks: allies will get less, Japan will lose less and will have more time to react those distractions

The best solution to prevent Polar Express is … well, build a Pacific navy from starting

@Lynxes:

Since AA50 did many things to avoid the KGF as the single game-winning strat

:? :? :roll: :roll:

How do you come to that conclusion? Remember that NOs are optional, and yes NOs are what we’re discussing, but even with NOs KGIF is still more effective than KJF. In the real WW2 KGF was more effective than KJF.

It’s very funny that in the LL vs ADS threads many players state that there is no mention of LL in the official rules, so it should not be used, but when AA50/AAR is designed so that KGF is more effective than other strats, you wanna change this, and you still don’t admit you want to change the core of the game!

I got a word from the AA50 main game designer, hope thats worth something……

“I guess I would opt for the money bid… get the money and purchase what you think you need to balance the game.”

@Lynxes:

/Telamon

I agree totally with you, I prefer ICs in FIC, BUR and IND, and once you get started Russia is in trouble. Why don’t you jump in on the bids thread (‘part 2’)? Bids of China inf are right now in lead for what kind of bid people prefer, and I’ve been arguing for that myself. If China gets say 4 extra inf at the front, Japan will be more stretched and it will be easier for Russia to help out both China and India. However, you could argue that UK inf in India would be even better, but that might be harder, to limit bids to just one territory is a bit difficult (free bids will probably be EGY-bound). Also those China rules are a big part of the rulebook and I think people are intrigued by the idea of them getting in use more. Since AA50 did many things to avoid the KGF as the single game-winning strat, a bid system going further in that direction is logical.

Thanks Lynxes.  I think a China bid has a lot to recommend it, but it also has some drawbacks.

• if Germany fails to take Egypt on G1 and the allies have a stronger china, the axis is in for a world of pain
• it’s a bit tricky to fine-tune as it only comes in ‘whole’ infantry bids, plus or minus - unlike cash
• while it might improve the structure of the game (i.e. make continental asia more interesting), it will change the dynamics (i.e. Japan will take longer to get to pressure moscow, which might have all sorts of consequences for strategies in the western hemisphere).  Not necessarily a bad thing, but it could create significant change.  They might even be changes we like?

I like the idea, but I’m not sold on it quite yet…