Should Germany take Egypt first turn?

Oh I agree!  Navy is more fun now, and I’ve always been a big navy girl! (Hence my title as Fleet Killer.)  The new sea zones in the Pacific really help too.

U-505 I would welcome the chance to play you but at the moment I have 6 games going on with another one probably about to start. Perhaps soon as some of these games finish up we can play a game. I honestly think you are making too many assumptions of Axis troop dispositions and positions.

I’ll take you up any time, 505.  Just let me know. :)

Then again, I’m hungry for games because once Feb hits, I’m gunna have to cut WAY back again.

Ok here is the new take and it has nothing to do with this attack or not attack Egypt on G1 strategy.

UK can easily wipe out the entire Italian fleet one turn latter and your just doing a risky battle ( with 30-40% success) to allow it to survive one EXTRA TURN.

UK just builds in Caucasus after another turns worth of purchases.

So Under my system i stock pile 4 land units ( 2 tanks and 2 inf) and take Egypt on G2 and i take it strong and w/o huge loses.

Also the allocation of German air assets to sink the UK fleets (5 ships gone) is achieved w/o major loses, but lost if played any other turn.

Under the G1 Egypt you get massacred and lose most of your units only to forestall the survivability of Italian fleet for ONE extra turn.

If a very simple choice.

How are you taking Egypt “strong?”

You don’t take Egypt on Germany 1.

England reinforces with 2 Infantry (at least) and sinks the SZ 14 Italian Fleet on UK 1.

Now it’s 2 Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor vs 4 Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Fighter(s)

Your odds just got worse!

MY plan:

Now it’s 4 Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Fighter(s)= 17

vs:

3 tanks, 1 art, 4 infantry, 1 bomber, 3 fighters on G2= 29

followed by Italy with 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 fighter= 9

your plan:

UK: 2 inf, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 fighter= 13

VS:

2 tanks, 2 inf, 1 art, 1 bomber plus ? 15?

Your plan can lose the entire Italian fleet by UK3

My plan can lose the entire Italian fleet by UK2

You plan allows the landing of 2 extra land units, while my plan is a much better attack and saves the potential defeat of the battle itself for africa, and also for greater loses performing a risky battle. I suspect in your battle you will lose at least 2 more pieces than i will and gaining just 2 IPC for these efforts, while i take out 5 UK ships for a few lost subs.

Also, since i take egypt strong on G2 the UK bombers also die because landing in Jordan commits them to die on Italian 2 or G3.

Also, consider the italians buy that destroyer, and the ensuing battle its 4,4,4,3–-vs. 4…3.3.2, which is kinda worse that your own Egypt G1 attack in terms of success. ( remember the Italian BB is 2 hits)

How are you getting the extra infantry and tank?

And you are positioning your fighters in Bulgaria?  So you are leaving France/NW Europe, Scandinavia and SZ 5 open to England?

How are you getting the extra infantry and tank?

On G1 the Germans medd tranny drops off a tank and inf. The morroco inf moves right
On G2 Germany lands 1 tank and 1 inf, plus all the junk from Libya

And you are positioning your fighters in Bulgaria?  So you are leaving France/NW Europe, Scandinavia and SZ 5 open to England?

2 fighters land in morroco from killing SZ 12 and third German fighter in france, bomber is out of reach actually because it must land in Norway, but i can switch out the allocations to allow a bomber in Sz12 and include the Bomber, but its not the best move IMO.

3 tanks, 1 art, 4 infantry, 0-1 bombers, and 3 fighters on G2= 29, but also remember i can build an additional German bomber on G1 for additional safety for the attack.

Okay, but don’t forget, England’s going to see you stacking Libya like no tomorrow and you’ll have to have equipment in Italy or Bulgaria to use to invade.

England’s not just going to sit there and watch.  They’ll most likely pull out of Egypt and build up bombers to sink the Med fleet.

You’ll have 4 Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Fighter(s) in Jordan instead of Egypt, and you’ll have 4 Bombers prepped and on the tarmac to hit Egypt next round if they don’t get a juicy Med Fleet target.

Really, you only have that first round to hit Egypt.  You are not getting a second chance at that fighter.

BTW, the ensuing SZ 14 battle is miscalculated on your end:

If Italy buys the Destroyer:

Italy: 4, 3, 3, 2
England: 4, 4, 4, 4, 3
(4 Bombers, 1 Fighter)

Assumes no ships in SZ 12

I think if Italy sees a 3 bomber buy on UK1, they should just go and be the best little brother they can be and support Germany in Ukraine (in what ever capacity is needed: add units or offshore into caucasus)

With $36 spend on planes, there won’t be much bad door pressure on Germany.

Germany can also pull some units from africa on G2 to Bulgaria/ukraine/caucasus.

Okay, but don’t forget, England’s going to see you stacking Libya like no tomorrow and you’ll have to have equipment in Italy or Bulgaria to use to invade.

England’s not just going to sit there and watch.  They’ll most likely pull out of Egypt and build up bombers to sink the Med fleet.

well thats also true, but if i saw that id have Italy take out both Egypt and Jordan and if they fail at one of these G2 will finish the job and deny the bombers landing space. IN any event the Italian fleet dies on UK2 or UK3…

and then there is the new idea about dispersing the fleet which has yet to be looked at. I advise to move the two transports separately from the warships because they are not hit allocations: so its 1 AP, 1 AP, and 1BB, 2CA, 1DD

Now thats forces 1 bomber  and another bomber to allocate on both transports and 4,4,3 against 4(2),3,3,2…which means i save my fleet and UK loses its bombers, because Japan has fighters at threes hitting bombers that may escape, unless they go to Caucasus.

You’ll have 4 Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Fighter(s) in Jordan instead of Egypt, and you’ll have 4 Bombers prepped and on the tarmac to hit Egypt next round if they don’t get a juicy Med Fleet target.

Well on I1 we take Jordan and on G2 Egypt falls… bombers have no home. If you retreat to Jordan entirely, then on I1, Italy takes Egypt and the German tanks blitz and Germany now has somewhat less: 3 tanks, 1 inf, 3 fighters, 1 bomber= 23

Really, you only have that first round to hit Egypt.  You are not getting a second chance at that fighter.

I agree with this, but i am trading that one fighter for 5 UK ships on alternative G1 air allocations and targets.

BTW your also correct on your other post, but the battle results in pretty much mutual destruction and id like to see that.

If i was UK i would wait a turn and get my bombers in Caucasus anyway, which also gets my bombers away from Japanese intentions.

Unfortunately, UK bombers in Caucasus takes away money from Russia so it is to be avoided if at all possible.

And you have to take into account that if Egypt and Trans-Jordan are taken by the Axis, Allied bombers built in UK on UK2 can’t reach the Italian fleet on UK3 so you would only have the initial UK aircraft and the UK1 builds to contest the Italian fleet. And if the Italian player is smart, their turn 1 build is a fighter and their turn 2 build is a CV making the fleet impervious to all but the most desperate attacks. That’s why the Allies have to play for the UK2 kill or the Italian fleet will get their CV and air cover and survive for 2 more turns, at least. Not the 1 turn like you suggest.

And you also have to account for an Allied attack on Algeria. If you leave 2 German fighters without fodder sitting in Algeria prepared for a second round attack on Trans-Jordan, I would abandon the UK bomber build and take my remaining UK TP with 1 inf, 1 arm supported by the UK bomber and possibly the Egyptian fighter and attack Algeria.

That’s a double bonus for the Allies because it not only kills two German fighters but it also possibly takes Algeria and eliminates an Italian NO unless they send units away from Egypt and counterattack Algeria. That right there weakens the German position because you have to allocate German ground units to cover the fighters.

@axis_roll:

@Cmdr:

Wish I had known that a bit earlier….coulda saved me some headaches I have now…oh well.

Old habits are hard to break…

I’ve read many a player admit to leave unescorted tpts on mistake as well

I do believe the new naval rules make it a much better game.

You know what kind of tweaks me about the new sub rules is that an unescorted transport can load units in sub infested waters, move through more sub infested waters, and finally unload their cargo in yet MORE sub infested waters and never be subjected any attacks whatsoever.

@Cmdr:

I’ll take you up any time, 505.  Just let me know. :)

Then again, I’m hungry for games because once Feb hits, I’m gunna have to cut WAY back again.

Done. Pick the year and the side you want to play and start the game thread.

@a44bigdog:

U-505 I would welcome the chance to play you but at the moment I have 6 games going on with another one probably about to start. Perhaps soon as some of these games finish up we can play a game. I honestly think you are making too many assumptions of Axis troop dispositions and positions.

Fair enough.

IL:

3 Bombers on UK 1 isn’t an awful idea anyway.  There’s not a lot of pressure of England landing units in Europe, but then again, England’s probably more concerned about stifling Italy early anyway, so landing some troops in Algeria would help with that.

And if you don’t use the bombers to hit the Italian fleet (which is a thought since you could have ships and other craft lined up to do that later) you can use them early on to end Italy’s purchasing power.    4 Bombers X 3.5 IPC each = 14 IPC dmg.  If one is shot down, then it’s 10-11 IPC damage to the Complex.  (Almost the cost of a bomber.)

Just thought I’d mention it.  I wouldn’t want someone to read the thread and go “Oh, she totally thinks bombers are only good for sinking the Italian fleet, I’ll really sneak up on her and bomber her complexes.” or something.

On UK1 i like buying 1 carrier and 2 bombers, rallying fleet in SZ 8 if it will be safe from enemy air.  This means IF you stay in SZ 14 you will lose your fleet.  Also, if you land 2 fighters in Algeria with no cover I will drop 2 units with my trans, hit you with the Egypt fighter plus the UK bomber to destroy them.

On UK2 I will usually move the carrier to SZ 12 to cover US landings, then go from there. I may build more planes, if the Egypt fighter is still alive I may drop another carrier, more ships, who knows, but with the carrier in SZ 12 plus the UK bombers that Italian fleet will most likely die on turn 3 or 4, and 2 fighters 3 bombers are much better odds anyway.

I guess my point is it doesn’t matter what the Axis do, if the Allies want the med and Africa they will have it.  BUT every round Italy distracts the Allies, is a round Germany gets to pound on Russia.

Also, if playing with NOs, I feel the best Italian buy is 1 fig on turn one, followed by a turn 2 AC witch makes there fleet much harder to kill.

Basically, if the allies REALLY want the Med and Africa nothing the Axis can do will stop them.

But it’s my experience that the Allies prefer to have Moscow and will divert the required forces and resources to maintaining Moscow even if it costs them the Med or Africa for a couple extra turns.

Unfortunately, UK bombers in Caucasus takes away money from Russia so it is to be avoided if at all possible.

The Soviets cant survive in 41 w/o help and secondly, thats an optional rule and we are not using them for this example.

And you have to take into account that if Egypt and Trans-Jordan are taken by the Axis, Allied bombers built in UK on UK2 can’t reach the Italian fleet on UK3 so you would only have the initial UK aircraft and the UK1 builds to contest the Italian fleet. And if the Italian player is smart, their turn 1 build is a fighter and their turn 2 build is a CV making the fleet impervious to all but the most desperate attacks. That’s why the Allies have to play for the UK2 kill or the Italian fleet will get their CV and air cover and survive for 2 more turns, at least. Not the 1 turn like you suggest.

And that can easily be overcome by buying 2 bombers on UK1 and a factory in India, then on UK2 buy 3 bombers and place them in India, then on UK3 you got 5 bombers and even more fighters and nothing can be done. You see their is a million ways to kill the Italian fleet if its the determination of the British player to do this. Italy can do anything about it.

Plus UK can bomb Italy and deprive its carrier build…

problem overcome.

And you also have to account for an Allied attack on Algeria. If you leave 2 German fighters without fodder sitting in Algeria prepared for a second round attack on Trans-Jordan, I would abandon the UK bomber build and take my remaining UK TP with 1 inf, 1 arm supported by the UK bomber and possibly the Egyptian fighter and attack Algeria.

ok so i move the tank(s) over and it still can reach Egypt in one turn.

problem overcome.

I don’t see national objectives as optional.  Without them, you need a bid to be Axis, IMHO.  Maybe even a bid for Russia as well, since you are effectively reducing Russia’s income by 5 IPC a round every round. (Rare is it Arkhangelsk falls before Moscow in my opinion.)

That said, Soviets can too survive in 1941 without Allied landings on Red Territories.  However, there are times the temporary loss of 5 IPC income for Russia is bearable because the gain of landing units in Russian territories is greater.

These times include, but are not limited too:

1)  Valid Landing Zones so you can attack high value targets of opportunity which make the game easier for you.
2)  Arkhangelsk is falling anyway, and you need British/American troops in Russia NOW.

I don’t see national objectives as optional.  Without them, you need a bid to be Axis, IMHO.  Maybe even a bid for Russia as well, since you are effectively reducing Russia’s income by 5 IPC a round every round. (Rare is it Arkhangelsk falls before Moscow in my opinion.)

WHAT??? in 1941 the axis need a bid??? huh? 1941 is kinda broken for allies IMO.

That said, Soviets can too survive in 1941 without Allied landings on Red Territories.  However, there are times the temporary loss of 5 IPC income for Russia is bearable because the gain of landing units in Russian territories is greater.

These times include, but are not limited too:

1)  Valid Landing Zones so you can attack high value targets of opportunity which make the game easier for you.
2)  Arkhangelsk is falling anyway, and you need British/American troops in Russia NOW.

I don’t see this at all. In 41 the Allies need to land and retake karelia and establish the Soviet player. Under my system German tanks can take advantage of the new maps territories to centralize and strike at north or south in one turn, which weakens the Soviet player, unless the brits can lend a hand.