Techs

@Imperious:

Germany starts with 35, got bombed for 20 IPC, leaving a balance of 15 IPC…

Under the new system, Germany could spend 15 on repairs, then spend the other 20 on two tanks, one artillery and two infantry.

So essentially if you SBR for 10 IPC,leaving 25 IPC, Germany can repair say 5 of it and spend 30 IPC?

No, you don’t SBR for IPCs, you SBR for damage points.  The IPCs are spent to repair the damage.  For each point of damage on the IC, one less unit may be produced there.  IPCs spent on repair can’t be spent on production.

1. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany, inflicting 20 damage points. Germany could spend 15 on repairs, then spend the balance of 20 on two tanks, one artillery and two infantry.

2. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany, inflicting 10 damage points. Germany could spend 6 on repairs, then spend the balance of 29 on five tanks and an artillery.

3. Germany has 35 IPCs, and the Allies bomb Germany, inflicting 3 damage points. Germany spends nothing on repair, then spends the balance of 32 on five tanks, an artillery and an infantry.

1. Determine total IPC 
2. Determine SBR loses
3. Decide what you want to spend on repair
(Note: repair is carried over from turn to turn that’s not repaired)
4. Value of what was spent on repair under #3 subtract from #1
(Note:  if you don’t repair subtract total SBR damage from total)
5. Net value of what you can purchase that turn on units

Examples:

1. 35
2. 3
3. 3
4. 3-35
5. 32

1. 35
2. 3
3. 0
4. 3-35
5. 32

1. 35
2. 28
3. 28
4. 28-35
5. 7

1. 35
2. 28
3. 15
4. 15-35
5. 20

1. 35
2. 20
3. 15
4. 15-35
5. 20

1. 35
2. 10
3. 6
4. 6-35
5. 29

1. 40
2. 23
3. 17
4. 17-40
5. 13

1. 40
2. 23
3. 0
4. 23-40
5. 13

1. 40
2. 18
3. 15
4. 15-40
5. 20

1. 40
2. 38
3. 38
4. 38-40
5. 2

1. 40
2. 38
3. 38
4. 38-40
5. 2

Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.

Second,  Each nations SBR damage is limited to double its territories value where the factory is in, so its not a good idea to buy factories in high value territories, but spread them into lots of little value territories instead. Nations like USA and Russia can potentially get a big hurt by the fact that double their factories is over or nearly greater than the total IPC output, which makes then targets of massive campaigns of SBR. They can’t repair more than their total IPC production if you have reduced them (speaking about Russia mostly but UK is in range) enough they wont ever get to build anything.

Now you need to have lots of fighters in capital, to fight dogfights and get rid of escorts, making fighters the unit that grew in importance along with bombers. People will buy lots of fighters to protect factories.

Third, this means transports are even more valuable, because you’re buying fewer factories trying to avoid SBR

@Imperious:

Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.

So you observe that you ARE losing IPC’s each turn to repair, so the bombers are doing IPC and Production capability damage.

@Imperious:

Now you need to have lots of fighters in capital, to fight dogfights and get rid of escorts, making fighters the unit that grew in importance along with bombers. People will buy lots of fighters to protect factories.

There is intercept capability for fighters?
You know this for a fact?
Is this a tech or a standard ability for ftrs?

How does all of that work?  This is what I want to know.  Since SBRs are much deadlier with a cheaper bomber, there has to be a counter to this more viable <allied>bomber strategy.</allied>

@Imperious:

Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.

That depends on the situation.  The ability to not repair everything every turn lets you “spread out your payments” if you can, but it also makes it possible to get into a bad situation by getting into debt if you’re not careful.  You should check your numbers in your examples, by the way.  Some of them don’t add up.

@Imperious:

Second,  Each nations SBR damage is limited to double its territories value where the factory is in, so its not a good idea to buy factories in high value territories, but spread them into lots of little value territories instead. Nations like USA and Russia can potentially get a big hurt by the fact that double their factories is over or nearly greater than the total IPC output, which makes then targets of massive campaigns of SBR. They can’t repair more than their total IPC production if you have reduced them (speaking about Russia mostly but UK is in range) enough they wont ever get to build anything.

This makes sense.  Concentrated industry is easier to bomb.

@Imperious:

Now you need to have lots of fighters in capital, to fight dogfights and get rid of escorts, making fighters the unit that grew in importance along with bombers. People will buy lots of fighters to protect factories.

There are no fighter escorts in Anniversary.

@axis_roll:

@Imperious:

Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.

So you observe that you ARE losing IPC’s each turn to repair, so the bombers are doing IPC and Production capability damage.

I still don’t see this.  The bombers are doing damage to production capacity - no IPCs are lost immediately.  The IPCs repair that capacity.  If you simply choose to repair all the damage every turn, in effect you’re doing the same thing that you’d be doing in Revised - losing IPCs directly to SBRs.  Unless, of course, you don’t have enough IPCs to repair enough to get any production, in which case you’re pretty much screwed anyway.

@axis_roll:

How does all of that work?  This is what I want to know.  Since SBRs are much deadlier with a cheaper bomber, there has to be a counter to this more viable <allied>bomber strategy.</allied>

This is a question that can only be answered by playing the game.

@Krieghund:

@axis_roll:

@Imperious:

Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.

So you observe that you ARE losing IPC’s each turn to repair, so the bombers are doing IPC and Production capability damage.

I still don’t see this.  The bombers are doing damage to production capacity - no IPCs are lost immediately.  The IPCs repair that capacity.  If you simply choose to repair all the damage every turn, in effect you’re doing the same thing that you’d be doing in Revised - losing IPCs directly to SBRs.  Unless, of course, you don’t have enough IPCs to repair enough to get any production, in which case you’re pretty much screwed anyway.

Are you trying to maintain that SBRs are NOT more powerful in AA50?

Sure, you have this somewhat ‘delayed’ IPC loss, but is STILL a loss, and to top it off, you can bomb an IC into ‘negative’ capability, meaning you HAVE to buy back production capability.  EVEN more powerful.

And USA starts with TWO bombers?  And they only cost $13?  Please tell me how Germany is supposed to stop an allied bombing campaign?  Technology rolls are the only way?

This is starting to look ugly to me.

@axis_roll:

@Krieghund:

@axis_roll:

@Imperious:

Patterns in this:
So the pattern shows you are best off if you repair the most damage possible each turn because the effect would be felt on each turn it’s not repaired.

So you observe that you ARE losing IPC’s each turn to repair, so the bombers are doing IPC and Production capability damage.

I still don’t see this.  The bombers are doing damage to production capacity - no IPCs are lost immediately.  The IPCs repair that capacity.  If you simply choose to repair all the damage every turn, in effect you’re doing the same thing that you’d be doing in Revised - losing IPCs directly to SBRs.  Unless, of course, you don’t have enough IPCs to repair enough to get any production, in which case you’re pretty much screwed anyway.

Are you trying to maintain that SBRs are NOT more powerful in AA50?

They are a bit more powerful than they are LHTR, but much less powerful than they are in OOB.  In the OOB rules, SBRs against targets worth six IPCs or more are practically unlimited (Heavy Bombers being the exception).

@axis_roll:

Sure, you have this somewhat ‘delayed’ IPC loss, but is STILL a loss, and to top it off, you can bomb an IC into ‘negative’ capability, meaning you HAVE to buy back production capability.  EVEN more powerful.

True, you have to buy back enough to get you into positive territory if you want to produce anything this turn.  However, the cap on total IPC losses is no greater than it is in LHTR.  In LHTR, the SBR losses in Germany are capped at 10 IPCs per Allied turn.  In Anniversary, the IC damage is capped at 20 total.  The only difference is that one Allied power can inflict all 20 damage points here, whereas in LHTR it would require two Allied powers acting in concert to get all 20 IPCs.

Either way, Germany’s not going to lose more than 20 IPCs per round to SBRs.  And not requiring the IC to be fully repaired gives Germany the flexibility to spend its IPCs the way it wants to (to an extent), rather than simply have them taken away.  If the IC isn’t fully repaired, there’s that much less damage that the Allies can inflict on the next round.

@axis_roll:

And USA starts with TWO bombers?  And they only cost $13?

Actually, they cost 12 IPCs.

@axis_roll:

Please tell me how Germany is supposed to stop an allied bombing campaign?  Technology rolls are the only way?

This is starting to look ugly to me.

Again, the only way to answer this is to play the game.

@Krieghund:

@axis_roll:

Please tell me how Germany is supposed to stop an allied bombing campaign?  Technology rolls are the only way?

This is starting to look ugly to me.

Again, the only way to answer this is to play the game.

BOO!

I don’t like this answer.  Sounds very ugly to me.  There’s no specific way (besides tech) to stop the cheaper, better allied bombers in this game.

Back to how well you can roll ones to shoot down the cheap bombers, or get lucky achieving the right tech… it’s random that you’ll get the tech you need.

Nothing I have seen says otherwise.

I’m truly sorry you don’t like my answer, but it’s the only one I’m prepared to give at the present time.  All I can say is that we can either trust that Larry and AH have created a balanced game, or we can hope that LHATR (or LH50TR  :wink:) will be forthcoming.  Until then, there’s always LHTR Revised.

@Craig:

Now you need to have lots of fighters in capital, to fight dogfights and get rid of escorts, making fighters the unit that grew in importance along with bombers. People will buy lots of fighters to protect factories.

There aren’t escorts or interceptors in the Anniversary Edition.  And I am glad that is the case.

Craig

Why?

Hoping to roll a radar technology or another of the “anti-SBR” technology it is not a good answer. Because if i am target of SBR I am losing IPC that are not usable for producing units being used for repairing. Alternatively I can not repair the IC, a risky moge given the fact that IC damage are permanent, as a consequences I am not able to maximize the number of unit my IC may build.

How can I react? Spending others IPC for rolling tech? Interesting. This means still less IPC for building units. Without considering that rolling a tech I may obtain the “powerful artillery tech” useful but powerless against the bombers.

Naturally this happens even if I have 5 fighters parked in the IC territory. What are supposed to do those fighters while the IC is carpet bombed? Historically Bomber where intercepted by ordinary fighters, no need of jet fighters to do that.

Posted by: Krieghund

Quote from: axis_roll on Today at 13:59:10
And USA starts with TWO bombers?  And they only cost $13?

Actually, they cost 12 IPCs.

Oh, is this a good thig?

The problem that I see, without the need to play the game, is that a great part of the game breaking decision are obtained rolling few dice if compared to the number of dice involved in ordinary battles. Few AA dice, few SBR dice, also few research dice. Few dice involved in a phenomena means less statistical events in the restricted time frame of a game. This means a game may be decided by few dice rolling in which one or two dice are rolled. This potentially is a game-ruining mechanism. A player may go after HB and having its bomber downed by lucky AA shot OR a player may never get a hit on a bomber. This are realistic results given the few dice involved. No help from statistic.

@Romulus:

Posted by: Krieghund

Quote from: axis_roll on Today at 13:59:10
And USA starts with TWO bombers?  And they only cost $13?

Actually, they cost 12 IPCs.

Oh, is this a good thig?

I provided that information merely as fact, with no value judgment attached to it.

@Krieghund:

I’m truly sorry you don’t like my answer, but it’s the only one I’m prepared to give at the present time.  All I can say is that we can either trust that Larry and AH have created a balanced game, or we can hope that LHATR (or LH50TR  :wink:) will be forthcoming.  Until then, there’s always LHTR Revised.

I have pre-orderd the game and already waiting. I hope to not having to wait again (i.e. LHTR50) to be able to play a game.

First: for USA to be reasonable secure of getting heavy bombers, lets say they need atleast 3 tecs to get heavy bombers. (need 6 to be 100% sure. 3.5 is the average # techs needed to get heavy bombers).  Paying for two scientist for each tec they will have to pay 30pt, and wait in averrage 3 turns for each tech. In average thus US need to wait 9 turns before getting heavy bombers! Thats a LOT of turns.

The thing about science is that 5pt is quit cheap to potentialy get something usefull later in the game. But you cannot build your strategy around it. It just have to be a bonus you get when you get it.

How to counter bombing playing Germany:
Possible solutions:
-build an Extra factory in europe(?)
-Take one or two factories from russia.
Who cares about bombing if you can build all units you want anyway.

-Be “lucky” on technology and get ‘improved factories’ or IC repair or ‘RADAR’
All of these helps fight bombing.

@Greand:

First: for USA to be reasonable secure of getting heavy bombers, lets say they need atleast 3 tecs to get heavy bombers. (need 6 to be 100% sure. 3.5 is the average # techs needed to get heavy bombers).

USA need not develop HB’s the implement a bombing campaign.

Sure, Germany can be toasted by SBRs, but what happens if Germany buys 1 bomber each turn and start to SBR Soviet ICs?  :-P What if Japanese bombers also join the party? Ouch!  :-o

@Craig:

Now you need to have lots of fighters in capital, to fight dogfights and get rid of escorts, making fighters the unit that grew in importance along with bombers. People will buy lots of fighters to protect factories.

There aren’t escorts or interceptors in the Anniversary Edition.  And I am glad that is the case.

Craig

There should have been. Apparently, the opinions of some caused it to go away.

The fact is, LHTR has HB about right. Having “HB” as a strategy is a poor game decision. There is no strategy other than “buy and roll”. Takes no thought whatsoever to implement.

And one country being able to Bomb Germany to -10 IS a big deal. This was part of the problem LHTR FIXED. And yet its back ?

I blame you.  :-D

Hopefully the ability for US to buy bombers even more cheaply will be balanced by the supposed need to not neglect the pacific, where ships + fighters should be more important than bombers since they protect the transports US will need to reclaim islands.  It does seem that UK can buy a bomber every turn or 2 and use them either as support for ground invading Europe or SBRs, though.  @12 IPCs bombers offer more offensive punch/cost than fighters now.

But yes, the same goes for Axis, as they can buy bombers also.  If UK puts a complex in India a Japanese bomber or 2 can force the UK to spend 6 IPCs to get back to normal production rather than the 3 IPCs UK would have lost before.  But since Germany needs a lot of ground units to deal with Russia and Japan needs a lot of ground units to deal with China and a possible India 'plex, plus navy to deal with the Pacific, it seems to me that lower costing bombers offers more to Allies than Axis.  And as far as Japan bombing Russia, they first need to push deep into China and have a secure enough position to stage bombers.  It seems they’ll be more worried with other efforts than bombing Russia.

@Lynxes:

/greand stone

The way tech rolls now work, you get to keep tech rolls you buy to the next turn. So if a nation buys two tech rolls/turn, they will get 2 tech rolls the first turn and FOUR tech rolls the next turn if they don’t succeed the first turn. So you’ll get a tech every 2nd turn -> US will only have to wait 6 turns to get HBMBs w. 10 IPCs/turn investment on average.

/Romulus

The idea with tech to counter HBMBs is to get the tech before you get hit by a massive bombing campaign. Investment from turn 1.

/axis_roll

I’m basically with you in your critique of HBMB rules, but I also think I understand Krieghund’s position. He’s been recruited to be an answer guy for AA50, and not discuss the rule changes critically. From what he’s written so far, I understand that Jets won’t have any interception function, and I now edit that out from my starting post.

Balance-wise, it may be that the national objectives saves the Axis. Either to put money into techs to counter HBMBs or to win a victory on VCs before those HBMBs will able to put into effect. Take a look at the thread on NOs that I started, Germany and Japan will get 5-15 IPCs extra EACH TURN just by taking historically conquered territories. Maybe the idea is that US needs to be able to get HBMBs to counter that?

So are we playing A&A? Or are we playing “Who gets tech fastest”?

Axis and alies is supposed to be a strategy wargame that happens to involve dice. It should not be a dice game that sometimes has startegy.

But making HB strong again pretty much counters every axis strategy. Japan cant reach USSR (or USA) with them, and Germany needs land units. Italy is cash poor.

That leaves good old USA to exploit HB. How wonderful… :roll:

@Lynxes:

/greand stone

The way tech rolls now work, you get to keep tech rolls you buy to the next turn. So if a nation buys two tech rolls/turn, they will get 2 tech rolls the first turn and FOUR tech rolls the next turn if they don’t succeed the first turn. So you’ll get a tech every 2nd turn -> US will only have to wait 6 turns to get HBMBs w. 10 IPCs/turn investment on average.

That’s true, with average results.  However 60 IPCs is a lot to risk on getting average results.  You could buy 5 normal bombers for that.

@Lynxes:

/axis_roll

I’m basically with you in your critique of HBMB rules, but I also think I understand Krieghund’s position. He’s been recruited to be an answer guy for AA50, and not discuss the rule changes critically.

Thanks, Lynxes.  However, I haven’t exactly been “recruited”.  I volunteered.  At the time, I didn’t know that “lightning rod” was in the job description.  :wink: