And another 60% battle gone stupidly wrong… wtf is going on with my dice?
Classic 2nd edition discussion
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This thread is to separate the discussion of the Classic edition as it (hopefully) makes an entry into the league.
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G gamerman01 pinned this topic
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I have not played the old versions very much, “classic 2nd ed” which one is it really in the “select game” option?
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Thank you very much for kicking off the discussion,
“World War II Classic” is the one to look for.
I don’t know if you ever got to enjoy playing on that board, but the Triple A representation is a really good replica.
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G gamerman01 referenced this topic
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I am wondering - how are we going to deal with bids in Classic? I’d say bids should be zero otherwise the ELO ratings would not make sense. However if the game is imbalanced then there needs to be some kind of bid to make the game balanced. So I guess the best thing would be to figure out that exact number, and let all games be played with that bid.
How are the bids in G40 league? I always see a varying number, so how do you make sure that when a person wins with a bid of e.g. +30 gains less ELO points than when he wins with +15 against the same opponent?
Also - in the tournament, sides are more or less picked by the players. This way a player could play the Allies every time if the situation allows it. If this player is a much better Allied than Axis player, then his final position in the tournament would be not representative for his overall skill. I think it’s better if the sides are fixed for every matched, in a way that players switch sides as much as possible.
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I was thinking briefly about the same issue, basically what if both players want the same side. This could be settled by bid or other means, by agreement of the players.
I can discuss finer points if you want, but first I’ll just say that I strongly believe bids have nothing to do with ELO unless one side is handicapping on purpose.
With a bid, both players are definitely agreeing that the game is fair with that bid, otherwise they’d keep bidding. This is why everyone in the league is fine with bidding having no effect on ELO - both players believe they have a fair starting board.
I also strongly believe that sides should never be set, neither should bids. Again, I can expound if you ask me to
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If you are better with one side, then you bid to get that side. If you’re really strong on one side, you’ll go further with the bid than other people will, unless they are also very strong on that side. Either way, it is fair because bidding stops when both players are satisfied.
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@gamerman01 said in Classic 2nd edition discussion:
I’ll just say that I strongly believe bids have nothing to do with ELO unless one side is handicapping on purpose.
I don’t quite grasp this. It might not have a major impact but it surely has an effect on the ratings. ELO ratings are to compare raw skill in a game. To achieve that the environment in all games must be the same. If you look at games like chess or soccer, all games are equal. I don’t get 5 extra queens when playing against Magnus Carlsen. If I did, imagine the game would be fair, and we would both win 50% of the time. My rating would go up a lot and his rating would go down, because my victories against someone with a higher rating count more than my losses.
If there was no bid, no extra queens, I would always lose. My rating would go down just slightly and his rating will stay mostly the same. Now, both of our ELOs are representative for our skill.
What I am saying is, when the bids are different you are comparing apples with pears. For Classic this might be not much of a problem as the bids will be very close to each other, but for example in Global bids can range from 0-70, that can really change the game.
Also, no worries about disagreeing. I like a good discussion. I want to be proven wrong.
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I believe I can prove you wrong.
This isn’t chess. The huge difference is the sides are definitely not equal, chess of course has 64 squares, alternating colors, and exactly the same pieces on both sides. Therefore, no bid is necessary, but white has tempo and I believe has a slight advantage if I recall correctly, so sides are switched. Soccer is the same. They switch sides in football and basketball at halftime because there are slight differences.
Axis and Allies is massively different. Even playing 2 sides and keeping the same setup does not make the sides equal.
In Classic with base rules, the Allies probably win 75% of the time or something, it’s horribly “imbalanced”. So if equal players played 2 games, each would win with the allies the vast majority of the time.A bid necessarily gets the game onto even footing. It is not a handicap at all, which is what your extra queens are. This is where the huge difference lies, in that you are not putting extra pieces on an even board.
Global is also uneven, as proven by hundreds and hundreds of games. We tracked for many years the win % of each side, and as the Axis kept staying above 50%, the bids need to increase. The bid is game by game, determined by each player. The bid will always stop when one player says nope, I can’t go that low. That means he is satisfied with the setup, and so is the other player, who probably would have gone a bit lower.
IT IS NOT A HANDICAP, I think that is the major piece you’re missing. It is essentially what both of the players agree is a fair setup. You are not giving more bid to the other player because you think he is weaker than you. I can go on if this is not enough for you to see what I’m saying
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@gamerman01 said in Classic 2nd edition discussion:
I can go on if this is not enough for you to see what I’m saying
Actually, what I’ll do if you’re not satisfied, is ask a couple of my super ace players to write up a short explanation and pass that on to you, or have them post here directly.
If the ELO + bid system was broken, believe you me several players would have cried bloody murder years ago
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I agree, you are right that those other games are much closer to balance than Classic is. That’s why I am not against a bid itself, but rather a bid that varies a lot. The value of the bid should allow a game played between two 10/10 experience players to be fair. All bids in all games must be exactly that number, however as A&A is a game of changes with many possibilities, that’s almost impossible so it should be as closely as possible. As long as we are not using a bid that ranges from 0-30 or something we should be fine.
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Also I indeed misunderstood you, I thought the bids in A&A functioned as a handicap so that both players win 50% of the time, but it was to make sure the game is balanced and that only skill influences the outcome of the game.
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To your second response, I’m glad I was able to communicate it well enough that it’s not a misunderstanding anymore.
To your first response, OK, thanks for that, I know where you’re at, better now
So the game by game bid is a beautiful thing.
If you set a bid (for global for our example) at 30, then both players may want the same side. You could flip for it, but then someone is disappointed they lost the flip. Since you are going back and forth, when one player has gone as low as he is willing to, both sides are satisfied.
I totally understand the argument against a bid, that it is changing the game setup. This is why @The_Good_Captain set official optional rules that get the game quite close.
So in the tournament, if it’s not easy like it was easy between you and me, then either bidding can be done or some other way to come to an agreement that no one is disappointed, getting the side they didn’t want.
Bidding is so popular in the league I’m not used to anyone questioning it or complaining, so if you really don’t have much experience with it yet, of course it would be a good idea if you tried it a few times
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@The_Good_Captain What would be in your opinion the necessary bid to balance the game with the current tournament ruleset?
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@VictoryFirst said in Classic 2nd edition discussion:
@The_Good_Captain What would be in your opinion the necessary bid to balance the game with the current tournament ruleset?
Given what I know the allies can do with IC that the Axis cannot, I wouldn’t take the Axis without at least a +3 bid where I put an extra Japanese infantry in FIC.
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