Scorched Earth
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On the USSR sheet it says:
“SCORCHED EARTH:
Can destroy its own facilities during the Combat Phase of its turn. No land unit is required.”“Facilities”
What does that include. I know that it means factories, naval bases, etc, but does it include rail? Fortifications or Coastal guns?“Combat phase”
I would assume this means any time during the phase. This could allow for the capture or a territory and then torching all the stuff in it.“Its own”
Does this mean any facility anywhere? Or just in home country or starting territories?What are your thoughts?
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@trig Good points. I would think “fortifications” includes rail and coastal guns. I would think “own” would be territories that were owned since the start of the turn (and not limited to home or starting territories). Not sure about that though and you are right that it could be clearer. I have seen videos where the USSR cut rails, so I think that’s settled law. In fact, cutting rails might be the most frequently used scorched earth facility.
I don’t think you would destroy a fortification because the first time a territory is captured, fortifications are automatically destroyed, so you might as well get your 2 shots at “5”, add +2 to defenders, and limit blitzing before it is destroyed. I suppose if you are Germany and built the Atlantic Wall, and wanted to entice the Allies into attacking so you could counterattack, you might want to voluntarily destroy a fortification, or if you were using this as a negotiation in your diplomacy (“I’ll destroy this fortification as a gesture of my good intent”), you might want to. Ha! You’ve talked me into it, Trig! I think you could destroy a fortification!
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast
Good points.
Another question about the diplomacy side of this. Can you you torch facilities during peacetime? I think not. -
@trig The realism side of me agree with you, but the gameplay side of me thinks if playtesting shows it to be balanced, I’d be okay with it. I think the way the rules are currently written, you could do it in peacetime.
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Interesting. Im in the middle of some Russian tweaks and I agree with trig.
Can move IC at peace time but can’t destroy until at war based on a threat or capture. -
Seeing as you can’t destroy things until your combat phase, I don’t see how it would be possible to do this in peacetime, as there really isn’t a combat phase to be had when you’re at peace.
And to the point above, Fortifications and coastal artillery are moot points, as they are destroyed upon the territory being conquered.
Interesting point on captured facilities. I’ve always just defaulted to that this rule applied to facilities in Home Country, but it does not say that. My guess though in actual game play is that if you’re at the point as the USSR where you’re taking enemy facilities, you’re probably in a good position and won’t be looking to destroy them :)
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@chris_henry
That said, since there is not prohibition against combat phase at peace, the point is moot. I would consider it that you go through all the phases, but there is just no combat to be done. Not that it doesn’t happen.
Why torch forts? Because you can! (Also this brings up a question. Are partially built forests destroyed when conquered? I would be inclined to say yes, but realism in me says no.)
As for the “own” I was thinking about the possibility of dropping an airborne or something in a enmey factory or airbase or such, and then torching it. For instance if Germany forgets to put something in Western german and there is an airborne in Leningrad… bye bye major factory. -
That said, since there is not prohibition against combat phase at peace, the point is moot. I would consider it that you go through all the phases, but there is just no combat to be done. Not that it doesn’t happen.
I guess to me there needs to be an eligible combat move to make to enact any combat move scenarios. I.E. you’re at peace, there’s nothing to combat move into, therefore you can’t use the combat movement phase to destroy facilities. That’s probably a semantics point though, but it seems a bit gamey to me to try that while at peace!
As for the “own” I was thinking about the possibility of dropping an airborne or something in a enmey factory or airbase or such, and then torching it. For instance if Germany forgets to put something in Western german and there is an airborne in Leningrad… bye bye major factory.
That exact situation is why I’ve always assumed it’s originally owned/Home Country facilities! I think a lot of people might “game” the rule a bit to do just what you’re saying. Sacrificing a single airborne infantry is well worth the trade for any type of facility you’d destroy! I think you’d start to see a not-so-small amount of suicide type attacks just to take out enemy facilities. But if that’s the rule then that’s the rule haha. I myself will probably house rule to say it’s only Home Country facilities!
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Just another possible interpretation because this rule is so succinct, but :
The Rules for “Combat Movement Phase” begin by explaining the declarations of war (8.1). If you are not at war, you cannot combat move and cannot later “Combat Phase”. So I would say that you cannot use Schorched Earth while at peace.
The mention of “its own facilites” suggests to me that we are talking about facilites in USSR original territories. Anything outside the USSR is captured territory/facilities and not the USSR’s own facilities.
Something just does not feel right about parachuting into an empty enemy territory and removing a facility at the end of your Combat Phase, especially since only the USSR could do this.
I really think this special ability was designed only for use in the USSR, just as it was in the real Second World War when you are forced to retreat and abandon territory to the invading forces.
Maybe another subject for the FAQ.
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@noneshallpass FAQ:
Q: Is the Soviet player able to use “Scorched Earth” special ability while at peace?A: Yes
I’ll see if anything else comes up. It looked like Morten was editing while I was there.
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@trig
Another update:"Q1: Is the Soviet player able to use “Scorched Earth” special ability without being at war with a Major Power?
Q2: Is the Soviet player able to use “Scorched Earth” special ability outside his Home Country?A1: Yes
A2: Yes. Land zone must have been in the Soviet players Possession since the beginning of the turn.Q: What are “facilities” ?
A: All man-made structures. See 1.4: “Land zones may have various man-made structures in them referred to henceforth as facilities.”
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What is the rule for Russia being able if can, move IC at peace and or war time ?
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@gen-manstein
“Once at war with a Major Power, U.S.S.R. may use 1 rail move to move a Minor or Medium Factory and 2 rail moves to move a Major Factory. The factory cannot produce any units/tech the turn it moves. It moves in whatever state of damage it has suffered. It must be in – and remain inside - Soviet Home Country”
From: https://www.historicalboardgaming.com/assets/images/HBG/GW1936v3/Ref Sheets/USSR v33.pdf
Please look at the reference sheets next time. -
This post is deleted! -
This post is deleted! -
Ok. My bad. I removed my post.
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@gen-manstein Fair enough, Gen! I too have removed my post.
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@noneshallpass I agree with all you said. I think that’s the proper reading of the rules as well. And I agree about the ability to essentially snipe facilities!
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@trig said in Scorched Earth:
@gen-manstein
“Once at war with a Major Power, U.S.S.R. may use 1 rail move to move a Minor or Medium Factory and 2 rail moves to move a Major Factory. The factory cannot produce any units/tech the turn it moves. It moves in whatever state of damage it has suffered. It must be in – and remain inside - Soviet Home Country”
From: https://www.historicalboardgaming.com/assets/images/HBG/GW1936v3/Ref Sheets/USSR v33.pdf
Please look at the reference sheets next time.OK So how do u guys feel about being able to move a damaged factory ? So they basically saying there is still salvage able tooling and some equipment to allow a damaged factory to move ?
The reason why I ask is all games that I’ve played u cannot move a damaged factory until repaired. -
@gen-manstein I think that’s how I look at it, yeah. That there’s salvageable stuff, etc. I definitely get what you’re saying about not moving them, but I’m generally okay with the rule. It’s still going to be damages when you move it, so if it’s worth it to you to expend rail movement points to get a damaged factory moved then your call to make.
I think we’d see a lot of fun with strategic bombing if this wasn’t allowed though. I know I’d make sure to bomb factories as I got close so that they couldn’t be moved if that was the case!
But I don’t think it ruins gameplay or anything by allowing it to happen.
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