Version 4?

@chris_henry said in Version 4?:

@athawulf Thanks. Yeah, I didn’t buy V3 right away because I was annoyed at the prospect of just getting rid of a V2 map that cost $150 dollars for a couple of years’ use. But I agree that the changes were substantial, and for the better. I definitely want the V3 map for all the terrain features added. But then with the virus we left a game un-played for months, and now haven’t played in over a year. Seemed as good a time as any.

I’m hoping any V4 changes are cosmetic this time around. What I fear is what might happen is the same thing with V2. That they just retire setup charts, reference sheets, expansion, etc. to focus on the new one, making V2 totally obsolete. If the changes are just cosmetic it’s of course easy to just use the old map for the new game. The V2 to V3 changes made that hard to do with the new territories and terrain features.

I’m all for updating a game to make it better, but it’s not cheap, and gets hard justifying dropping $150+ every two years because an alteration was made. I might hold off a bit longer to see if any details come out on what changes might happen. Thanks!

Yo depends on how much your other hobbies and fun cost. 150 every 2 years ain’t nothing ex specially if you host many games. You can always get group guys to kick in a few bucks each.
I liked the v2 more than v3. But just me.

The map. I waited a year for 39 rules to come out. Was a bit pissed.
So Koba and I played 39 game with groups. So he wanted to see and me if we could setup 39 game on new 36 map. Set it up. 2 issues we had were Uk and med sz to small or not enough space. Anyway we looked at new v2 39 rules and way to long and much. I would probably play the game but most not in both groups

Thought the map was really cool. Only cons were to many low territory values and maybe it was the railroad over kill.
Works better in tigermans Barbarossa game

Rather have war room railroads like they have on Larry’s map.

We played v1 39. Then v2 36 39
came out but the 39 rules weren’t ready. So had to wait a year. Bs.
Then I tried to setup v1 39 on the v2 36-39
Map but wouldn’t work based on Uk to close to Ger baltic and smaller med I believe

@chris_henry said in Version 4?:

Got it, I get you now.

Yeah, that’s rough. And it sounds like the V1 39 game was definitely different enough for it not to work on the V2 map without having the V2 setup ready to go. That’s definitely a bummer.

We actually liked the v1. 39 setup better than v2. 39 setup
Just can’t remember if I tried setup on map then or a year earlier before v2. 39 rules came out

As someone who plays v3 on a v2 map, i fully imagine that minor map changes (if we take that at face value) will be not enough to significantly impact playing v4 on a v3 map.

@Chris_Henry

Curious, how did you reconcile setup for areas where there are territories that didn’t exist before?

Fortunately, v3 only added territories, so we didn’t have to worry about merging multiple setup units into one.

And most of the new territories are easily distinct, even without lines (which we went in and marked up later).

The most annoying part of it were the facilities, you’ll need enough tokens for facilities to mark up the map, i used 1cmx1cm glass mosaic squares that I stamped letters on. We also assumed that every territory has a minor port, because ill be dammed if i have to set all those up.

How did you reconcile the new terrain features? Do you even use them, since they’re technically optional rules?

I think most of the terrain features are there in v2. I think we skipped on jungles and desert however as they are missing IIRC.

To me that doesn’t mean adding territories on the map. But it might mean that for others.

I think it might include minor things like

• Is Iraq Connected to the Ocean?
• Is Burma Connected to China (via passable terrain)
• Is Western Australia Mountainous from the sea (Rondel to Rondel terrain tracing doesn’t work for amphibious assaults).
• Do we really need minor ports?
• Updated Rondels
• Here would be my dream, built in battle boards on the north and south sides of the map. Get their image for the battleboard, set the opacity to 50% and set it to the bottom and top.

@insanehoshi said in Version 4?:

@Chris_Henry

Curious, how did you reconcile setup for areas where there are territories that didn’t exist before?

Fortunately, v3 only added territories, so we didn’t have to worry about merging multiple setup units into one.

And most of the new territories are easily distinct, even without lines (which we went in and marked up later).

The most annoying part of it were the facilities, you’ll need enough tokens for facilities to mark up the map, i used 1cmx1cm glass mosaic squares that I stamped letters on. We also assumed that every territory has a minor port, because ill be dammed if i have to set all those up.

How did you reconcile the new terrain features? Do you even use them, since they’re technically optional rules?

I think most of the terrain features are there in v2. I think we skipped on jungles and desert however as they are missing IIRC.

To me that doesn’t mean adding territories on the map. But it might mean that for others.

I think it might include minor things like

• Is Iraq Connected to the Ocean?
• Is Burma Connected to China (via passable terrain)
• Is Western Australia Mountainous from the sea (Rondel to Rondel terrain tracing doesn’t work for amphibious assaults).
• Do we really need minor ports?
• Updated Rondels
• Here would be my dream, built in battle boards on the north and south sides of the map. Get their image for the battleboard, set the opacity to 50% and set it to the bottom and top.

Not on map but top and bottom battle boards

@chris_henry I know there was definitely a few set up changes from V2. The french got an extra BB, the cruisers got divided up, and I think the British “Force H” got moved from 80 to 79. Some of the build queue stuff changed as well. Plus of course the added territories in Greece, Japan, London, Tobruk, etc. Nothing major.
My wishlist for v4 includes:

• Sea zone “roundels” to make life easier for us all
• A better Strategic naval move system
• More territories in Yugo and China and Iran. I don’t like how Yugoslavia is one, while Greece is 4, and China’s rear areas get rolled through too fast. I in general say, if a territory is large on the map (southern Iran) and it is large IRL, then chop it.
• On more sea zone from the US to HI. They are almost as far away from HI as HI is from Japan.
• Japan being able to take planes on their sneak attack
• Damage costs for capital ships
• Supply, defending retreat, in port, shipborne AA rules. All just good ways to add some accuracy to the game.
• Battlecruisers!!! And not those mislabeled things we have now. I want the Hood and Kongo and well, that is about it. Maybe Yavuz.

@trig said in Version 4?:

@chris_henry I know there was definitely a few set up changes from V2. The french got an extra BB, the cruisers got divided up, and I think the British “Force H” got moved from 80 to 79. Some of the build queue stuff changed as well. Plus of course the added territories in Greece, Japan, London, Tobruk, etc. Nothing major.
My wishlist for v4 includes:

• Sea zone “roundels” to make life easier for us all
  **I noticed that too. Maybe on my next map make routes but can only hit in certain areas based on history.
  **
• A better Strategic naval move system
  **How would you like to have this ?
  **
• More territories in Yugo and China and Iran. I don’t like how Yugoslavia is one, while Greece is 4, and China’s rear areas get rolled through too fast. I in general say, if a territory is large on the map (southern Iran) and it is large IRL, then chop it.
  **Agree here. At least I have on my map only 1 move period through Asia and Russian Siberian territories to the coast.
  **
• On more sea zone from the US to HI. They are almost as far away from HI as HI is from Japan.
  Yes. Should be the same for both countries or just 1 sz closer for US if possible. Depends on miles.

• Japan being able to take planes on their sneak attack
  OK

• Damage costs for capital ships
  Yes

• Supply, defending retreat, in port, shipborne AA rules. All just good ways to add some accuracy to the game.
  **How would you use your shipborne AA ? I have in my game.
  **
• Battlecruisers!!! And not those mislabeled things we have now. I want the Hood and Kongo and well, that is about it. Maybe Yavuz.
  Sweet

@chris_henry
The argument on the Japanese sneak attack, has been ongoing for a while now. The rule in the book states that Japanese ships can move 5 spaces when performing the sneak attack and the argument is carrier based aircraft can only move a maximum of 4 spaces according to the rules. I am paraphrasing but just trying to give you a basic understanding of the argument. In my opinion the Japanese aircraft should be allowed to participate in the sneak attack, this I believe is the spirit of the whole sneak attack scenario involving Japan. I am sure it will be straightened out soon if it has not already been and I just missed it…which sometimes happens.

@chris_henry said in Version 4?:

Thanks @Trig . I thought there were some changes, maybe I misunderstood insaneHoshi’s comment above!

No, that was my problem. I misread his statement as what he wanted not what he expected. Hence my list. I doubt even half the things I say will get changed, but it is worth getting them out there.

• More territories in Yugo and China and Iran. I don’t like how Yugoslavia is one, while Greece is 4, and China’s rear areas get rolled through too fast. I in general say, if a territory is large on the map (southern Iran) and it is large IRL, then chop it.

To your point on territories, specifically in Yugo, China, and Iran. First, it sounds like the Croatia at War Expansion is something for you! Do you use it? True it’s not base game, but getting that expansion probably quells your concerns there? I agree with China, I think some of those warlord territories could be split in two, at least. I don’t know how much Iran matters overall. I think that area is largely a sideshow compared to the others. At what point do they stop splitting? You could argue Africa should more or less double it’s territories as well then, same with Canada. But I do get what you’re saying.

My thoughts are this: If you can get the space, make more territories. If possible, make the sizing as realistic as possible. For instance, the Belgian Congo is the same size as much of western europe, which is over 20 territories. That is not necessary, but 2 or 3 might be nice. And there is space, considering that almost nothing happens there and the armies involved are quite small. similarly, you could cut down Quebec of Northwest territories, or add in more territories in Siberia (or especially Western Kazakhstan. That thing is bloated.) Tsinghai or Tibet could be two territories. Even Iran could get another territory, Southeastern Iran or something. I could list a bunch of places but you get the idea.

On Yugo, I like the idea from the expansion, but I think a better solution would be to make 2 or 3 territories in the base game. A northern Croatia and a southern Serbia, possibly adding Northern Macedonia if needed. (Slovenia is just too small.) The expansion also only takes effect after the conquest, and the point is to make it a little longer to conquer Yugoslavia and show their historical problem of a decent army but a huge border. (Also, Greece is about 1.5 times smaller than Yugo, but gets 4 territories. Really?)

• Japan being able to take planes on their sneak attack

I don’t follow here. You’re talking about the Japanese Special Ability, right? Nothing says Japanese planes can’t partake. It in fact says that all Japanese planes get first strike. Maybe I’m misunderstanding?

Mark just answered this, and I would just love an ability to either give the plans a +1 or let them ride carriers or something. There are a lot of Sneak attack possibilities where it is called off b/c the planes can’t reach. this just seems unrealistic, b/c one of the biggest reasons for Japan to do well early on was air superiority. (Pearl Harbor anyone?) Not a big deal, but it is annoying.

Overall, I have great respect for the designers, this is just a list of things think could be improved or added. I look forward to v4, and can’t wait to see what they pull out next.

@gen-manstein said in Version 4?:

@trig said in Version 4?:

@chris_henry I know there was definitely a few set up changes from V2. The french got an extra BB, the cruisers got divided up, and I think the British “Force H” got moved from 80 to 79. Some of the build queue stuff changed as well. Plus of course the added territories in Greece, Japan, London, Tobruk, etc. Nothing major.
My wishlist for v4 includes:

• Sea zone “roundels” to make life easier for us all
  I noticed that too. Maybe on my next map make routes but can only hit in certain areas based on history.
  I mainly want this for the Coastal gun and terrain question, about where ships are. It just makes sense that we can use a existing system from the land and move it to sea. Also, now we could add reefs and sea terrain :)
• A better Strategic naval move system
  .
  How would you like to have this ?
  Mainly just an ability to move all ships, or move w/o transports, longer distance, etc to better reflect the speed at which ships move! I’m not sure, but it could definitely be improved. I need to try some things out. A air ferry thing would be cool too, seeing as we have a speed move for land and sea as well.
  .
• More territories in Yugo and China and Iran. I don’t like how Yugoslavia is one, while Greece is 4, and China’s rear areas get rolled through too fast. I in general say, if a territory is large on the map (southern Iran) and it is large IRL, then chop it.
  **Agree here. At least I have on my map only 1 move period through Asia and Russian Siberian territories to the coast.
  **
• On more sea zone from the US to HI. They are almost as far away from HI as HI is from Japan.
  Yes. Should be the same for both countries or just 1 sz closer for US if possible. Depends on miles.

Yes> They are 3,855.98 mi from Tokyo and 2,393 mi for San Fran. At least 22 and3 >

• Damage costs for capital ships
  Yes

I use 1d6 for thins

• Supply, defending retreat, in port, shipborne AA rules. All just good ways to add some accuracy to the game.
  **How would you use your shipborne AA ? I have in my game.
  **
  Mainly as a form of defense aginst air attack. A plane can attack ship with them shooting back at lower values. Would give some more accuracy.
• Battlecruisers!!! And not those mislabeled things we have now. I want the Hood and Kongo and well, that is about it. Maybe Yavuz.
  Sweet

I would like a system much like a BB but without any hitpoints, would be a fun unit.
k
Sorry for the bad text near the middle, my computer is acting up. Will redo on a ddifferent device.