Ohh sorry I didn’t know it was for the purpose of baiting the Japanese, that genuinely makes alot more sense now and I can see why that would work. But all the same, with 4 aircraft carriers on Wake Island and 8 planes, a 2nd wake of aircraft and submarines won’t do it for yah. Especially with the subs being hit by the aircraft.
@nolimit said in Converting to KJF:
@squirecam There are just Too many variables to say exactly what I would bring in, just depends on what Japan brings to the table- it’s different for every game of course!
Well assume what I posted. Everything that can reach goes to Caroline island and its sea zone. What cant reach stays outside Japan sea zone except for the bomber attacking Yunnan.
I know you weren’t asking me, but personally for me I usually spend my 52 IPC’s as America on 2 Carriers and a battleship which I put 1 carrier on either side of the board and depending on if I’m doing KGF or KJF I’ll put the battleship on the Pacific or Atlantic, (likely the atlantic) and if there was a Japanese potential threat to doing a Pearl harbor I would more than likely pull out of the harbor and station my ships in San Francisco for the time being. Turn 2, I will likely build transports for the atlantic whilst also building another aircraft carrier with fighters to beat Japan in the carrier race as well as maybe a transport or 2 to then begin moving units down south to Island Hop.
As per a J2 pearl harbor attack, if Japan builds a carrier on J1, then they’ll have the potential of sending in a whopping 9 aircraft to attack your ships at Pearl Harbor to go along with their 4 destroyers and 2 submarines if you were to move your entire fleet onto pearl. Without the scramble, you’ll probably only lose the 2 subs and maybe a destroyer, with the scramble you’ll more than likely lose the 2 subs, and 2-4 of your destroyers.
Either way, there just isn’t anything America can do to stop the Japanese initially due to their access to 4 carriers on the Eastern Pacific. Japan doesn’t need his battleships to be effective, a smart player will use his 4 aircraft carriers of 8 planes to harass the hell out America until they feel like they should pull back, keep in mind from J1-J4 japan more than likely won’t lose any of their planes unless they get diced, so looking towards removing half of Japan’s airforce is an absolute lost cause.
So at the end of the day you’re pretty much right in that America can’t do anything against Japan for the time being, obviously that’ll change though if they prioritize their fleet.
@thedesertfox said in Converting to KJF:
I know you weren’t asking me, but personally for me I usually spend my 52 IPC’s as America on 2 Carriers and a battleship which I put 1 carrier on either side of the board and depending on if I’m doing KGF or KJF I’ll put the battleship on the Pacific or Atlantic, (likely the atlantic) and if there was a Japanese potential threat to doing a Pearl harbor I would more than likely pull out of the harbor and station my ships in San Francisco for the time being. Turn 2, I will likely build transports for the atlantic whilst also building another aircraft carrier with fighters to beat Japan in the carrier race as well as maybe a transport or 2 to then begin moving units down south to Island Hop.
Right. This is exactly what I was getting to. USA has to build in the pacific or hand Japan the VC. My first goal is eliminating the floating bridge and forcing USA to fight Japan instead of just protecting Hawaii.
If I saw you placing a carrier and bb in the atlantic then I would either take Honolulu T2 or T3 while setting up a fleet to take Sydney. Either forcing you to build everything in the Pacific or risk losing the game.
Couldn’t have said it better. As the player playing Japan, I absolutely welcome the Americans to put their 72 dollars into the Pacific, seriously, I invite them to do that with open arms. Why? Because I know that stuff is all going to end up in the bottom of the ocean. Part of what most American players dont really realize is that when they put ships in the Pacific Ocean, they dont’ realize that those ships are being built for the purpose of fighting the Japanese head to head. But instead, they’ll build them there only for them to just sit in the ocean and not do squat… which is great for me.
To be honest, I can understand why someone such as General Hand Grenade would think that the so said Floating Bridge and Middle Earth are unstoppable and it’s because he’s completely negated Japan.
Part of what he said in his “My thoughts on Pearl Harbor” video was quote on quote: “I’ve never been super fond of doing a Pearl harbor attack because it put the Japanese navy in a place that it didn’t need to be in”.
This is exactly why his strategies seem unstoppable, because he’s absolutely negated what the Japanese player should be doing, and yes, Japan should absolutely have their navy in Pearl Harbor and Wake Island, because that is what forces the Americans to fight Japan, there’s no better unit meant for harassing the hell out of America than the good ol’ aircraft carrier, capable of carrying a fighter and tactical bomber.
@thedesertfox I’m not sure how to communicate that the American navy is bait for the second and third wave. Tell me in your math, how many Japanese ships are left after the three subs and 2 bombers and 1 fighter that swoop in on t2? How many after the third wave of 3 subs and 5 fighters?
I didn’t think anyone could build major industrial complexes on non original territories?
I explained earlier in a message of my understanding that one cannot put a Major Industrial Complex on a territory he did not originally start with.
I understand that the American Navy is ‘bait’ per say for Japan. But let me break down the numbers.
Assuming Japan sends absolutely everything in to cut their loses, they are more than likely going to lose the 2 subs and likely 1-2 destroyers, so half their cannon fodder. Which still leaves them with 2 battleships, 4 aircraft carriers with fighters and tac bombers, a cruiser, and 2 destroyers.
3 subs and a fighter and 2 bombers might at most remove another destroyer and since Japan is easily capable of mobillizing another destroyer they dont have to worry about keeping one around, so they will at most lose both their destroyers and likely take a hit on one of the battleships. 3 subs and 5 fighters, again assuming Japan is reinforcing themselves with newly mobilized ships destroyers should not be a factor in whether they can hit submarines or not. So in turn with 3 more subs and 5 fighters, you’ll more than likely destroy the 2 more mobilized destroyers the Japanese have, and likely damage their other battleship, and maybe 2 of their aircraft carriers.
Japan has too many units in their navy that unless they miss every single shot from every single ship, it’s gonna be limited to a 1 round combat. Keep in mind that the majority of their destroyers and even their aircraft carriers defend at 2, their battleships and fighters at 4 which would be like 6 at 4 with 2 battleships and 4 fighters, and 5 at 3 with tthe cruiser and 4 tac bombers. Granted, you’re forcing Japan to really commit to fighting you instead of elsewhere, but are you really getting anything done in doing this?
@thedesertfox do you play here? I’m looking for a game.
Unfortunately I do not play games on the forums since I dont have as much time as I used to but I still enjoy thinking and talking about strategies for potential future games maybe even participating in the Grasshopper tournament or something
@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
@thedesertfox do you play here? I’m looking for a game.
I’ll play you if you like.
I can definitely see a different aspect of an IJN concept of beating the Japanese back, which includes Island hopping starting at the Solomon Islands, working your way into New Guinea and so on and so forth a very basic concept but all the same forcing the Japanese to prioritize a large American force and navy moving from island to island and potentially landing in mainland China.
@squirecam great. randyshervandyke@yahoo.com. oob. with tech please.
@thedesertfox The point of the banana split (new name) is that if ignored it can get most of the US air to yunnan and on to Russia fairly early.
I like that name. The banana split. Not a bad strategy it can just prove to be costly for America
@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
@squirecam great. randyshervandyke@yahoo.com. oob. with tech please.
Sorry man, I loathe tech since classic. Eliminates the point of having a bid.
@squirecam Phfftt, it’s not like you’re gonna get tech easily with oob rules- anybody who goes for tech in oob is a sucker and just wasting his Ipcs!!!
In all frankness, I have never seen KJF work. Yes, I have seen Japan be completely hosed, with income down to the teens. Despite this, the US still has to spend money to keep Japan down and is unable to dedicate 100% of its resources to Europe.
Admittedly, I have only played with a few dozen players. Maybe there’s a good KJF out there that I have yet to see.
It is hard to script out KJF because Japan has soo many options, but here are a few random thoughts:
First, Japan has other income options that don’t depend on its navy. Crushing China early and taking Russian territory helps Germany and Japan while impeding Russia.
Second, it does not take that much US income to give the UK and Russia the edge over Germany and Italy.
Third, it takes almost the entire US income to overcome Japan’s navy.
Fourth, it is completely up to Japan when to go to war with the US.
All of these factors lead me to believe that KJF as a primary plan can’t work because it fundamentally assumes that your opponent is going to do certain things a certain way.
If you know your opponent always does a J1 attack you can certainly plan a response for that, but in terms of strategy that works against every opponent you need more tools than that in the toolbox.
Marsh
I can honestly see where you are coming from. Personally, I tend to focus more on the Europe side of the board and closing fronts with Germany and Italy one by one until I can burn em’ out of the bunkers and back to the mainland of Europe.
That being said, I don’t really like to leave devil that is Japan to his demons like other American players tend to do. I get that as long as you protect Honolulu and Sydney from the Rising Sun then they can’t win the game on that side of the board but yah’ wanna believe me when I say it that them Japanese are gonna D-Daying the beaches of Hawaii before the American player can even say “Pearl Harbor.” I’ve seen it happen, and Japan is fully and completely capable of wiping out the American navy early or late in the game.
Hence why as the Americans, I like to intercept Japan, and sabotage them. To put simply, not make any particular military gains against Japan, but rather slow down their operations. A few examples of what this would look like could be sabotaging say a newly mobilized navy of warships in the Sea of Japan, move in with your own navy, destroy it, maybe even get a few kamikazes of the mainland Japan, and get out of there before the Japanese can bring in the rest of their navy. Another example can be limiting the size of the Sphere of Influence Japan has by securing significant islands and using them as a hub for units to post up. A typical island some players will use is Wake Island where they will build up around 6 or 9 transports in the Pacific and build a naval base on Wake Island to shuck units to Wake and then with the naval base, you have access to wherever you need to go in the pacific without Japanese blockers being a setback for you.
@thedesertfox said in Converting to KJF:
That being said, I don’t really like to leave devil that is Japan to his demons like other American players tend to do. I get that as long as you protect Honolulu and Sydney from the Rising Sun then they can’t win the game on that side of the board but yah’ wanna believe me when I say it that them Japanese are gonna D-Daying the beaches of Hawaii before the American player can even say “Pearl Harbor.” I’ve seen it happen, and Japan is fully and completely capable of wiping out the American navy early or late in the game.
So, here’s the way it works in my experience.
For every plane that the US adds to Hawaii Japan needs to bring an extra loaded transport. That’s 10 IPCs from the US requiring 14 IPCs from Japan to counter.
Japan can’t afford that until late in the game. Before then, it is far too busy trying to secure its income base. After that, it still has to defeat the Allied Pacific fleet. It then has to have sufficient resources lined up to conquer Hawaii before the Allies can rebuild the fleet.
Marsh
