Yeah, well, that’s my ego to you. You’e right though.
Converting to KJF
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@thedesertfox I’m not sure how to communicate that the American navy is bait for the second and third wave. Tell me in your math, how many Japanese ships are left after the three subs and 2 bombers and 1 fighter that swoop in on t2? How many after the third wave of 3 subs and 5 fighters?
I didn’t think anyone could build major industrial complexes on non original territories?
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I explained earlier in a message of my understanding that one cannot put a Major Industrial Complex on a territory he did not originally start with.
I understand that the American Navy is ‘bait’ per say for Japan. But let me break down the numbers.
Assuming Japan sends absolutely everything in to cut their loses, they are more than likely going to lose the 2 subs and likely 1-2 destroyers, so half their cannon fodder. Which still leaves them with 2 battleships, 4 aircraft carriers with fighters and tac bombers, a cruiser, and 2 destroyers.
3 subs and a fighter and 2 bombers might at most remove another destroyer and since Japan is easily capable of mobillizing another destroyer they dont have to worry about keeping one around, so they will at most lose both their destroyers and likely take a hit on one of the battleships. 3 subs and 5 fighters, again assuming Japan is reinforcing themselves with newly mobilized ships destroyers should not be a factor in whether they can hit submarines or not. So in turn with 3 more subs and 5 fighters, you’ll more than likely destroy the 2 more mobilized destroyers the Japanese have, and likely damage their other battleship, and maybe 2 of their aircraft carriers.
Japan has too many units in their navy that unless they miss every single shot from every single ship, it’s gonna be limited to a 1 round combat. Keep in mind that the majority of their destroyers and even their aircraft carriers defend at 2, their battleships and fighters at 4 which would be like 6 at 4 with 2 battleships and 4 fighters, and 5 at 3 with tthe cruiser and 4 tac bombers. Granted, you’re forcing Japan to really commit to fighting you instead of elsewhere, but are you really getting anything done in doing this?
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@thedesertfox do you play here? I’m looking for a game.
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Unfortunately I do not play games on the forums since I dont have as much time as I used to but I still enjoy thinking and talking about strategies for potential future games maybe even participating in the Grasshopper tournament or something
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@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
@thedesertfox do you play here? I’m looking for a game.
I’ll play you if you like.
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I can definitely see a different aspect of an IJN concept of beating the Japanese back, which includes Island hopping starting at the Solomon Islands, working your way into New Guinea and so on and so forth a very basic concept but all the same forcing the Japanese to prioritize a large American force and navy moving from island to island and potentially landing in mainland China.
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@squirecam great. randyshervandyke@yahoo.com. oob. with tech please.
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@thedesertfox The point of the banana split (new name) is that if ignored it can get most of the US air to yunnan and on to Russia fairly early.
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I like that name. The banana split. Not a bad strategy it can just prove to be costly for America
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@crockett36 said in Converting to KJF:
@squirecam great. randyshervandyke@yahoo.com. oob. with tech please.
Sorry man, I loathe tech since classic. Eliminates the point of having a bid.
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@squirecam Phfftt, it’s not like you’re gonna get tech easily with oob rules- anybody who goes for tech in oob is a sucker and just wasting his Ipcs!!!
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In all frankness, I have never seen KJF work. Yes, I have seen Japan be completely hosed, with income down to the teens. Despite this, the US still has to spend money to keep Japan down and is unable to dedicate 100% of its resources to Europe.
Admittedly, I have only played with a few dozen players. Maybe there’s a good KJF out there that I have yet to see.
It is hard to script out KJF because Japan has soo many options, but here are a few random thoughts:
First, Japan has other income options that don’t depend on its navy. Crushing China early and taking Russian territory helps Germany and Japan while impeding Russia.
Second, it does not take that much US income to give the UK and Russia the edge over Germany and Italy.
Third, it takes almost the entire US income to overcome Japan’s navy.
Fourth, it is completely up to Japan when to go to war with the US.
All of these factors lead me to believe that KJF as a primary plan can’t work because it fundamentally assumes that your opponent is going to do certain things a certain way.
If you know your opponent always does a J1 attack you can certainly plan a response for that, but in terms of strategy that works against every opponent you need more tools than that in the toolbox.
Marsh
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I can honestly see where you are coming from. Personally, I tend to focus more on the Europe side of the board and closing fronts with Germany and Italy one by one until I can burn em’ out of the bunkers and back to the mainland of Europe.
That being said, I don’t really like to leave devil that is Japan to his demons like other American players tend to do. I get that as long as you protect Honolulu and Sydney from the Rising Sun then they can’t win the game on that side of the board but yah’ wanna believe me when I say it that them Japanese are gonna D-Daying the beaches of Hawaii before the American player can even say “Pearl Harbor.” I’ve seen it happen, and Japan is fully and completely capable of wiping out the American navy early or late in the game.
Hence why as the Americans, I like to intercept Japan, and sabotage them. To put simply, not make any particular military gains against Japan, but rather slow down their operations. A few examples of what this would look like could be sabotaging say a newly mobilized navy of warships in the Sea of Japan, move in with your own navy, destroy it, maybe even get a few kamikazes of the mainland Japan, and get out of there before the Japanese can bring in the rest of their navy. Another example can be limiting the size of the Sphere of Influence Japan has by securing significant islands and using them as a hub for units to post up. A typical island some players will use is Wake Island where they will build up around 6 or 9 transports in the Pacific and build a naval base on Wake Island to shuck units to Wake and then with the naval base, you have access to wherever you need to go in the pacific without Japanese blockers being a setback for you.
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@thedesertfox said in Converting to KJF:
That being said, I don’t really like to leave devil that is Japan to his demons like other American players tend to do. I get that as long as you protect Honolulu and Sydney from the Rising Sun then they can’t win the game on that side of the board but yah’ wanna believe me when I say it that them Japanese are gonna D-Daying the beaches of Hawaii before the American player can even say “Pearl Harbor.” I’ve seen it happen, and Japan is fully and completely capable of wiping out the American navy early or late in the game.
So, here’s the way it works in my experience.
For every plane that the US adds to Hawaii Japan needs to bring an extra loaded transport. That’s 10 IPCs from the US requiring 14 IPCs from Japan to counter.
Japan can’t afford that until late in the game. Before then, it is far too busy trying to secure its income base. After that, it still has to defeat the Allied Pacific fleet. It then has to have sufficient resources lined up to conquer Hawaii before the Allies can rebuild the fleet.
Marsh
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@marshmallowofwar said in Converting to KJF:
@thedesertfox said in Converting to KJF:
That being said, I don’t really like to leave devil that is Japan to his demons like other American players tend to do. I get that as long as you protect Honolulu and Sydney from the Rising Sun then they can’t win the game on that side of the board but yah’ wanna believe me when I say it that them Japanese are gonna D-Daying the beaches of Hawaii before the American player can even say “Pearl Harbor.” I’ve seen it happen, and Japan is fully and completely capable of wiping out the American navy early or late in the game.
So, here’s the way it works in my experience.
For every plane that the US adds to Hawaii Japan needs to bring an extra loaded transport. That’s 10 IPCs from the US requiring 14 IPCs from Japan to counter.
Japan can’t afford that until late in the game. Before then, it is far too busy trying to secure its income base. After that, it still has to defeat the Allied Pacific fleet. It then has to have sufficient resources lined up to conquer Hawaii before the Allies can rebuild the fleet.
Marsh
Which is why you challenge the US fleet from the start before they can match you.
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Precisely, Pearl Harbor might be the most ingenious and generic move a player playing japan can do, having left the fleet alone turn 1, sways the US to move everything onto Hawaii having been able to consolidate and then destroy it all. And if they think they can just keep it on San Francisco well then their fleet won’t be doing them a lick of good but the enemy.
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I know this might be considered revolutionary, but perhaps the US could deploy a blocker to sea zone 16…
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@marshmallowofwar said in Converting to KJF:
I know this might be considered revolutionary, but perhaps the US could deploy a blocker to sea zone 16…
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…Um…no
I dont attack J1. So there is no blocking because we are not at war. Moreover, my fleet after J1 is at caroline island. So putting a ship in sz16 doesnt block it anyway.
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What he said.
Also, even if I was coming from Japan, I wouldn’t need to bring my carriers, just my fighters, and they’d fly right over that tiny destroyer :/
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Just out of curiosity do you attack J2 or J3?
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