Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships

@hbg-gw-enthusiast No, remember, this is normal as in the subs attacking. You would place all forces, the four subs, and whatever ships or planes are in the sea zone, on the battle board and do combat. The subs could chose to submerge, but every ship or plane gets a shot.

Let’s look at a example-
Say 4 German subs moved into the English channel.
There are 3 destroyers, 1 heavy cruiser, and a light carrier with a fighter there.
The UK player chooses to stop the subs and engage in combat.
All forces are placed on the battleboard.
The German subs each chose to fight or submerge. 2 chose each.
The 2 subs fighting roll and get one hit. this is not first strike, and the UK elects to lose a destroyer.
The UK player then shots back with all his ships’ defense values and gets 3 hits.
The German player loses 3 subs- the 2 that fought, and one that was submerging.
The lone surviving sub submerges and the battle is over.

I hope that makes sense.

@trig @trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Say 4 German subs moved into the English channel.
There are 3 destroyers, 1 heavy cruiser, and a light carrier with a fighter there.
The UK player chooses to stop the subs and engage in combat.
All forces are placed on the battleboard.
The German subs each chose to fight or submerge. 2 chose each.
The 2 subs fighting roll and get one hit. this is not first strike, and the UK elects to lose a destroyer.
The UK player then shots back with all his ships’ defense values and gets 3 hits.
The German player loses 3 subs- the 2 that fought, and one that was submerging.
The lone surviving sub submerges and the battle is over.

I agree entirely with your description!
So, back on page 2, I posed a similar analogy, just with a MAP and a DD as the defending fleet with four submarines moving into the sea zone.

Noneshallpass wrote, “I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.”

I was surprised and asked for confirmation that this was true, because it would be very powerful.

You responded, “I would believe so.”

I thought and thought about it, and it didn’t make sense. So, I wrote, “The idea that the MAP aircraft + all defending naval units get to fire at each submarine entering is really bothering me and feels wrong.”

In order to make it clear that I meant it doesn’t make sense that the MAP + defending naval units get to fire a round at each sub in the zone, I gave an analogy of the 100 subs entering one by one. Instead of MAP + defending naval units getting one shot at each sub, I thought it should work as you describe, above.

When all is said and done, you and I totally agree on how it is resolved when submarines combat move into sea zones with MAP. I feel ready now to make another video. Thanks and so sorry for the confusion!

@hbg-gw-enthusiast Correct, No harm done! You will never fight more than one battle with one unit.

@HBG-GW-Enthusiast Sorry if I confused you with my previous comment. I think that when you consider that one MAP is enough to stop all subs and then you place all of them on the battleboard as @Trig pointed out, it makes things simpler.

I does not mean that the MAP and DD will actually get a shot at each sub, considering the possible option to submerge, just that they are part of at least one round of naval combat and that is enough to stop them in that zone. The extra subs just don’t get a free pass because they outnumber the MAP aircraft.

At least my dubious answer got you to clarify things!

@noneshallpass Ha! You are the best! This conversation hopefully will help others! I agree that many of these examples aren’t going to come up because the submarine player will seek juicier prey elsewhere.

General Hand Grenade has a video on Japanese Carriers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AaJxeTalbs

At 19:36, he proposes an interesting scenario where there is a submarine in a sea zone and a CV with two aircraft two spaces away. He states that you are not allowed to pounce on the submarine by moving the CV into that sea zone, and declaring the carrier-based aircraft are on MAP to engage the submarine.

Question #1
If there is an enemy submarine in a sea zone and I hypothetically move four destroyers into that sea zone, would I not move them during combat movement? There may not be combat (because the submarine will likely stay submerged), but since there is a chance the submarine will engage, do I not make this move during the combat movement phase?

Question #2
If I add a CV to the four destroyers and want to move the fleet to the sea zone containing the submarine, am I allowed to bring the CV, or only the four destroyers? One could argue that since the CV has an attack value of zero, it cannot move to the sea zone with the submarine because it cannot participate in combat. But on the other hand, if you don’t allow them to move as one fleet, then the CV cannot move with the destroyers into the sea zone two spaces away because the destroyers move there during combat movement, then the submarine declines combat, and then the CV can’t move there during non-combat because the space contains an enemy submarine. It seems that even though the CV has an attack value of zero, it is allowed to move into the submarine-containing sea zone with the destroyers.

Question #3
Now, put aircraft on the CV. The CV, its aircraft, and four destroyers move into the submarine-containing sea zone. Carrier-based aircraft may act as if on MAP. Can the two aircraft pair with two of the four destroyers to attack the submarine?

Question #4
Now, subtract the destroyers. Can the CV and its aircraft move into the submarine-containing sea zone?

I would propose the following errata which would solve my above question:

Page 35, 8.7 Maritime Air Patrol, Carrier-Based Aircraft, 2nd paragraph, “For game purposes, aircraft on Carriers may always act as if on Maritime Air Patrol.” Should be changed to, “For game purposes, aircraft on Carriers may act as if on Maritime Air Patrol when they are the Defending player.”

To @HBG-GW-Enthusiast

Question 1 : Yes you move these destroyers during combat, but the owner of the submarine has the option to decline combat.

Question 2 : You have to move all your ships during either combat or non-combat. A CV has an attack value of zero but still can be taken as casualty, so you can move it during combat move as any other vessel.

In your example, nothing prevents you from moving it also during non-combat, as the submarine will not have the option to engage during non-combat.

Question 3 : The MAP range restictions apply to carrier-based aircraft. That is only possible if the CV and planes were one sea zone away.

Question 4 : Yes they can. Same range restrictions apply to MAP.

@noneshallpass Super helpful, as always!

GHG has stated in his video that if a carrier with aircraft on it moves, then the aircraft have to stay on the carrier. That helps clear up my confusion and eliminates the need for my proposed errata.

@noneshallpass said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

To @HBG-GW-Enthusiast

In your example, nothing prevents you from moving it also during non-combat, as the submarine will not have the option to engage during non-combat.

Wait. I’m not sure about this. If I move 4 destroyers into a sea zone and the submarine submerges, then during non-combat I can treat that sea zone as empty? Could I move beyond the submarine then to another further sea zone? If my CV is two away from the submarine, the destroyers enter during combat movement, the submarine submerges, then I could move the CV through the submarine to even a sea zone three away?

Why not. Sub submerged in combat. Now cv can move through in non combat

Why doesn’t your destroyers not get a depth charge shot on sub submerging ?
Or is there another 5 rules for that ?

@gen-manstein Defending submarines can only be killed by aircraft in MAP, unless they choose to participate in naval combat (Rules 8.9 and 9.10).

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@noneshallpass said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

To @HBG-GW-Enthusiast
Wait. I’m not sure about this. If I move 4 destroyers into a sea zone and the submarine submerges, then during non-combat I can treat that sea zone as empty? Could I move beyond the submarine then to another further sea zone? If my CV is two away from the submarine, the destroyers enter during combat movement, the submarine submerges, then I could move the CV through the submarine to even a sea zone three away?

Yeah, now that you mention it, I may be confusing with the A&A rule that Enemy submarines may be ignored if they are the only naval units in the sea zone. I can’t seem to find the equivalent in Global War rules.

@gen-manstein said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Why not. Sub submerged in combat. Now cv can move through in non combat

Do you have a rules reference that if a sub submerges in the combat phase then, during non-combat movement, that sub can be ignored?

You could use screening forces to move a separate fleet to some other combat, but I don’t think you can do non-combat movement through a sea zone containing a submarine.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@gen-manstein said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Why not. Sub submerged in combat. Now cv can move through in non combat

Do you have a rules reference that if a sub submerges in the combat phase then, during non-combat movement, that sub can be ignored?

You could use screening forces to move a separate fleet to some other combat, but I don’t think you can do non-combat movement through a sea zone containing a submarine.

Do subs block movement or just get a shot when something sails by ?

@barnee said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@gen-manstein said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Why not. Sub submerged in combat. Now cv can move through in non combat

Do you have a rules reference that if a sub submerges in the combat phase then, during non-combat movement, that sub can be ignored?

You could use screening forces to move a separate fleet to some other combat, but I don’t think you can do non-combat movement through a sea zone containing a submarine.

Do subs block movement or just get a shot when something sails by ?

Depends barnee on rule 9.5.7.9.2.0 if there at periscope depth. Seems they don’t get crap. There scampers barnee. What’s a lone destroyer suppose to do when sub dives ? I get the plane help but wasn’t there that early in war. But hey not my rules. Move on.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast I think it should be errata’d the subject of what counts as “An aircraft on Carriers.” Imo they should say that aircraft are only “on carriers” all the time save combat movement and combat. It would solve a couple other questionable areas as well.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

then during non-combat I can treat that sea zone as empty? Could I move beyond the submarine then to another further sea zone? If my CV is two away from the submarine, the destroyers enter during combat movement, the submarine submerges, then I could move t

As per 0.5, When a submarine submerges, they are allowed to share sea zones with other vessesls. Thus submarines can not participate in combat until the next players combat phase. This means that you can non combat into zones with submerged submarines since combat can not occur.