WW2 Path to Victory - Rules Discussion

I’m reviewing all Vichy rules available out there, as I plan to make a unique mod, because I like historical realism and simplicity, with minimized luck of dice, and some “asymmetric balance”.

Some major points I’ve posted elsewhere in the forum:

The main issue for this expansion is how to develop French neutrality, while at the same time providing a bonus to Germany. Apparently ignored by most players, in real life (IRL), Germany economically exploited Vichy, which had to richly sustain 300,000 German troops stationed in Northern France. Therefore, in the game, it only makes total sense that Germany gets the 3 IPCs from Vichy Southern France.

Another related major issue is what to do with French colonies in terms of neutrality/occupation and IPC flows. I agree that the Vichy setup should reflect what happened IRL: North Africa, Syria, and Indochina go to Vichy, while other French colonies stay Free. However, it messes up Italy’s incursions into North Africa (as IRL, Hitler denied French colonies to Italy). I’m not sure yet as to the best approach to subjecting these colonies to invasion, occupation, and who gains IPCs (other than agreeing that Japan has easy access “rights” over Vichy Indochina), and also remote units…

Germany never fought Vichy. IRL, with Operation Torch, Germany simply occupied Vichy in 1942, with no resistance whatsoever. Vichy units were disbanded. That can be also the case in the game. Just remove Vichy units.

The uncertainty surrounding local pre-battles is quite interesting (will Vichy troops welcome or resist Allies in North Africa?..). However, I’d try to minimize dice randomness that is often used to decide some outcome. IRL, Vichy troops (just like Italians) surrendered as soon as seeing enemy superiority: thus, in the game, if Allies send more land + air units than defending Vichy units, then there should be no battle but quick surrender. Or, make it highly unlikely that a battle would ensue (for example, need to roll a 1).

I’m now working on my own house rules, for an expansion (HBG lingo) that is quite realistic, fun yet simple. If anyone is interested, let me know and I’ll be happy to share my rules when ready…

phd_angel@yahoo.com

Chicago, December 2020

Cannot find many threads that really get into this version of the game in great detail. Played 1 full game of it so far, and love it. (I was originally a Classic player all the way.)

Anyway, few questions to maybe spark some discussion on this:

Which official version is this map closest to? Also which “official” rule set does this variant use? Spring 1942 edition?

Bidding: on the few posts I found on the topic, it seems people think this map favors the Axis and they actually bid allies. Either I am reading posts on a different version or I just suck, because it seems like the Allies are in pretty good shape in this map from the beginning and they can do some things right out of the gate to slow what needs to be a rapid Axis assault. E.g. China being a distraction and the UK being able to defend most of its colonies for at least 3 turns.

I am still not entirely sure what the best opening moves are for the Axis, which is what I would really like to discuss in depth here if other folks have some more experience with this game. For instance, what odds should the German player take to try and take Leningrad first turn? It seems like their Northern fleet cannot last more than a turn against a good UK player, so should you just sacrifice it and take worse odds on a Leningrad assault if the Soviet player leaves you, say, a 70% chance? (I am usually the kind of player that only attacks with overwhelming odds, e.g., 90% and above. Even 85% makes me nervous…) How can the Germans ever keep their Northern fleet alive? Do they need to? (It seems like the English can kill it turn 1 no matter what the Germans do.) If you cannot take Leningrad T1, is it better to instead focus like a laser on a later round (T4 or 5) take over of Stalingrad with a huge mass of tanks and infantry that you slowly plod over there?

Is a rapid take over of Africa impossible against a UK player who adequately defends Syria and Egypt T1 and who rapidly stacks Gibraltar with numerous planes and troops? Should the Italians forego Africa and put everything into a Russian assault? Is Western Turkey a viable take-over to open up another avenue for Italian ships and/or tanks into Russia or Africa?

Do the Japanese sacrifice their fleet to kill the US at Midway or do they ignore them entirely and focus everything on India? It seems like focusing on anything else is ultimately a mistake, at least thats how my last game played out.

So many questions! What do you guys think is the optimum opening Axis move?

@Yavid:

nations with an “old bb” piece from HBG I’ve replaced improved mech inf. tech with heavy battleship tech. HBG become the standard BB and used at set up and can be purchased until you get the tech. After you get the tech you can buy the OOB battleships as heavy battleships. These Heavy Battleships are 4/4/2/20 units just like standard but take 3 hits to sink and roll two dice in combat taking the best roll and using it.

Interesting idea, though I’m not sure if I want to make it a “tech” thing, especially since all the nations had new BB’s already in production before the war started.  I’d be more inclined to make it a “tech” ability to create a TRUE SBB along the lines of Yamato, Montana or H-class (and perhaps Sovietsky Soyuz, and, perhaps even more arguably Iowa, Vanguard and Lion), of which the Yamato is the only one we’re likely to have a piece for any time soon (and of which only the Yamato was ever actually built)… I might try something along these lines, along with maybe a “super-cruiser” and/or “super-carrier” tech if and when I ever decide to try using some of my painted NAVWAR or Panzerschiffe pieces on a very big map like GW1939… but I don’t see the likelihood of having AA-scale pieces of any of the other true SBB’s any time soon.

Another idea: perhaps old BB’s could be a 3/4/2 unit or a 4/3/2 unit; the rationale here is that the “real world” speed difference may not be enough to make a difference in the category of strategic mobility (which is what speed really represents in game terms, and most especially on the smaller board versions) but rather that the old/new speed difference should be understood as more an issue of “tactical” mobility which could put old BB’s in a combat disadvantage on either defense or offense?  If so, though, in which of the two would the lack of tactical mobility be more important?  I’m leaning toward it being a bigger disadvantage on offense, but I’d be interested in hearing other opinions.

In any case, keep in mind, for all of you out there who plan to use some sort of “old BB” house rules, that classic BB pieces are about perfect for this while we’re waiting for HBG to get to all of the nations’ version of one.  Similarly, the classic version’s carriers are almost perfect for generic CVE’s.  Variable or Coach, do you guys have classic pieces available for these two unit types for most of the relevant nations for those who don’t have oodles of them lying around?

James,

Should propose that in the delta threads!  Great idea!  Would seriously punish a round 12 invasion of Spain (+8 more defending infantry?  EEK!)

I have studied extensively the economic dynamics of the added benefit of how nations faired following conquest, and concluded that the conquering player for the most part has not increased his total economic output from either liberation or conquest, and even to a lower degree has the nation that was invaded had lost any of its war making potential as a result of enemy occupied lands.

Cases:

German invasion of the Soviet Union only caused the Soviets to mobilize to a full war economy, moving potentially targeted areas (factories and industry) out of harms way. Secondly, even after the period of 1943-45 the Soviet economy rose at a even level in spite of having recaptured most if not all of her German occupied territories.

In Germany’s case she did benefit marginally with the conquest of france, because Vichy government was forced to pay for the war but this didn’t add nearly as much as the Germans slowly moving into a full wartime economy.

In the British case the loss of Singapore, parts of Egypt or Tobruk only served to embolden the conquerer and which served to deliver only a short term psychological blow to national morale.

Japan did benefit from the conquest of the Dutch colonies and was able to sustain her war from the newfound oil imports to offset the American oil embargo effects.

The invasion and liberation of France did not afford the allies with income, nor did it cost the Germans anything but prestige, a few lost U-boat bases, and some strategic air fields… but no tangible economic benefits other than the stoppage of some foodstuffs and payments from Vichy.

I think in all these cases they represent examples of only lost or gained oil reserves, but did not effect the production of airplanes, tanks, ships, or raising of new cadres of Infantry formations. In Germanys case conquered peoples offered a few divisions worth of volunteers but the effect was marginal.

All of this points to the direction that it may be more realistic and in fact solve some of the games issues, by  doing the following:

Each nation is established with a basic starting income and this does not change, except by possible investments into the economy to grow it to full war making potential.

what does this mean?

It means that for example the Soviets, Americans and Germans had economy that took time to mature and that can be presented in the game, by setting benchmarks to illustrate its growth over each turn or following the nations victory conditions.  For example: Germany avoids Moscow and instead takes the oil fields of Baku… they would be rewarded each turn with a set value in IPC, but otherwise they maintain the original income.

Secondly, note that each nation has DIFFERENT IPC starting values… so the question would also be how do the Axis try to get more money than what they start with?

They can invest in building the economy. Say they have 45 IPC basic income, they decide to save 10 IPC and you multiply the 10 IPC to the nations growth rate ( say Germany is at 50% growth rate) , so on all future turns her new starting figure will be at 50 IPC  ( remember: this is just an example).

possible benefits:

–Nobody is gonna keep taking stuff just to collect the money
–It saves alot of time to figure out what money you have
–it will boost SBR campaigns which done seem to really be part of the game
– it will encourage submarine warfare and ENR attacks
– All these silly invasions would keep happening
– effective elimination of a game phase ( collect income), also solving that issue about double collection.

Now im sure some of you will say it will extend the game and make it longer, but if you also adopt the all Axis/ All Allies move sequence the time is a washout.

Map and the unit setup for the game can be found from ABattlemap. However I can’t find the rules for the game. The rules were in the Flames of Europe website, but the site is down for some reason. I have played the game once and I would like to play it again, I just don’t remember the rules.

Does anyone know where to find rules for Advanced Historical A&A: Europe?

EDIT: Flames of Europe website is active again and the rules can be downloaded there.

This map is huge 15 square feet wow I can use my Axis and Allies Miniatures for this game sweet. I wish, I fear I will never have enough planes though  :x

These rules are added on to the rules posted in the post with the maps and country cards
While setting this game up and trying to give it a realistic twist

National Advantages

Most of the advantages posted in the revised rules will work. This list has the not so compatible ones changed.
USSR-
Russian Winter AA-R
Non Aggresion treaty AA-R
Mobile Industry AA-R
Salvage AA-R
Tank Guards regiment-Tanks in the cities of Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow defend on 4’s House rule
Lend Lease AA-R

Great Britain-
Radar AA-R
Joint Strike AA-R
Common Wealth Troops– Common Wealth Industrial complex’s produce 2 free Infantry during your mobilize new units phase Does not count against build limit this includes newly built complexes. Factories in Sydney And Calcutta Are the common wealth
Mid-East Oil  Cairo, Trans Jordia, Syria, Iraq, Iran,Southern Iran, Tehran,Upper Egypt AA-R
French resistance AA-R
Flying boats- Bombers may attack subs  without destroyer present  Bomber attacks on 3 or less. House rule

USA-
Liberty ships-transports now cost 6 IPC’s House rule
Marines AA-P
Mechinized Inf. AA-R
Fast carriers AA-R
Superfortresses AA-R
Lend Lease-- US units,( other then Infantry) May be converted at a I.C. to that country. This Includes ships In a sea zone bordering a Industrail complex. Max of 4 units per turn. House rule

Germany-
U-boat Program- Subs Cost 6 IPC’s House rule
Atlantik Wall- Infantry Defend on 3’s during an Amphibious onto a grey territory house rule excludes Afrika House Rule
Wolf Packs AA-R
V-2 Rockets- Fired from AA, Range 3  fired at Industrail complexes,  Max 1 rocket attack per turn per gun, On roll of 5, or 6, V-2 misses What ever is rolled on the other die, equal amount of IPC loss. House Rule
Panzer Blitz AA-R
Fortress Europe- African spaces don’t get bonus AA-R

Japan- all AA- Revised
Tokyo Expess
Kamikaze Attacks
Lightning Assaults
Dug in Defenders
Banzai Attacks
Kaitan torpedoes-- Kamikaze subs Hit on 4’s, does not need to be next 2 red territory.

Italy- I could use some help here. This is what I was thinking, you really can’t give them a ligitamate Nat’l advantage because the majority of there equipment was crap. Add that to the even crappier training there military overall recieved, backed by their puny production rate, I say give them MORE ships at start of game. Italy did have a rather large Surface fleet, bigger then Germany’s Maybe they get another BB and transport with there fleet. This would be their Nat’l. Advantage.

Tech Tree-
1. Jet Fighters
2. Super Subs
3. Long Range Aircraft
4. Heavy Bombers-- Cost 18 IPC’s Move 6,a4,4-d1, can carry two Paratroopers-- Heavy Airtransports, Cost 7 IPC, move 4 a0-d1 May move two paratroopers or Infantry
5. Combined Bombardment
6. Heavy Tanks  Cost 8 IPC, move 2, 4-4
7. Long Range Artillery- Defending Arty gets Prilimanary bombardment. 1 die per Def. Arty need to roll 1’s to hit. Attacking Artillery that is not performing a combat move may choose to support other units attacking adjoining territories. 1 arty per attacking unit.
A roll of a 1 is a hit  This is also a prliminary bombardment
8. Mechanized Infantry-Tanks may carry 1 Inf
9. Super Carriers- can carry 3 fighters
10*. Industrial Tech. Roll a d6, 1-2 Army 3-4 Navy 5-6*  Airforce IPC reduction in costs. Army- 1 Airforce- 2 Navy- 2 *Battleships -3
11. ParaTroopers/ Air transports-  Paratroopers- Cost 4 IPC, Move 1 attack 2 Defend 2  air transport
Airtransport cost 6 IPC move 4 a0,d1 may carry 1 paratrooper or 1 Inf.
12. Radar- May fire 2 AA that defend on a 2, 2 Die. 1AA = 1 die @ 2, 2AA = 2 Die @ 2, no more then 2 AA may fire from 1 Territory.
*

Other Rules That should be included

Japan gets it’s First Strike As per pacific Rules must be used first turn
Russia Can’t Attack it’s first turn unless attacked first, or maybe Germany gets a surprise attack against only  Russia, like japans
surprise attacks
US control over China be as similar to Pacific rules as you can, this includes builds, Or china can be it’s own country with a 9 IPC Starting income China goes simultanious with US player

Neutral countries British D-day Pieces
Italy Yellow Jap Pieces Revised- Italys Tanks were crappy and small also, and at least they are not fielding Shermans
AA guns- You can Have as many AA guns as you want per territory but gain the benifit of only having one. Only 1 AA gun per territory per turn may fire. This is also true for V-2 Rockets.

If you want utilize your new trucks that came with Battle of the bulge game,
Trucks- Cost 4 IPC’s  move 3 Attack 0 Defend 0  Transport 1 Inf. + 1 Arty or 1 Inf  Can be captured not destroyed If a territory is lost that contains a truck the new owner may immiediatly use the truck as it had not moved and was his at the begining of their turn. Passengers Dismount upon contact with the enemy and defend as normal. Trucks movement ends when something dismounts. Trucks can Load move load and move again

Also this map is perfect if you don’t neccassarily want russia involved right away, kinda like Xeno games world at war.Llots of possibilities with this set up

Russia collects Half their income until  war is declared on them or the 5th turn, then they are automatically at war  Can only attack neutral territories or chimese territories intil they are at war

Now any one got an idea for National Advantage’s for Italy or maybe china?

@Toonster:

The rules for World at War says the following about an Axis IPC win:

“Germany and Japan win whenever their combined IPC total is 20 IPCs higher than all of the Allies combined.”

Does this mean directly after Japan has finished his turn, implying Russia and US cannot fight back?

Toonster

I assume (as in orig. A&A), that the Axis must maintain the IPC total at the end on one complete round of play (meaning every player has had a turn).