When can subs be used as fodder?

@general-LD yes. The Sub would get to roll first and any hit would have to be allocated , before the attacker rolled his dice.

Welcome, Wileyone!

The transport dies, whether or not the sub submerges.

The important thing to understand about the defenseless transport rule is that it’s basically there to keep you from having to roll round after round of dice when the outcome is inevitable. The Soviet fighter would eventually hit the transport if the battle continued. It’s just a matter of time.

@dondoolee:

-Think I am getting off easy because you “only” role 2 dice for heavy bombers

-Am still filled with wonder by transporting an infantry unit AND ANYTHING ELSE I WANT!

-Still think it is a bit rude and unsportsmanlike to attack Germany with Russia on R1.

Hehe - what a great post.  Yes, I’ve played enough Revised (about 70 games on GTO) and Anniversary that I think all of the Classic stuff is actually expelled from my system.  However, the ones I quoted still resonate with me.  Although with Germany right on the doorstep, it doesn’t seem rude or unsportsmanlike to attack Germany on R1 (which was crippling in Classic, as you imply)  In Classic you had the Caucasus buffer zone.
I’ve got some new ones to add.
-  I still have urges to attack subs with planes for the free shots.

-  Still cringe at attacking transports with planes because I might lose my planes and still not hit the transports (actually, I got used to the Anny rule very quickly)

-  Still have the urge to attack Russia with Germany with all available personnel every turn, especially turn 1, to get that all important Karelia factory!

Don’t have revised or dday(have everything else) ….hence my ignorance…sorry

I agree.  The use of subs with aircraft is a gret combo for naval combat  (even better if you have super subs).  You can even make it cheaper if you have long range aircraft and jet fighter, transforming your fighters in better weapon than the original bomber.

I’m sorry to disagree, but long range aircraft benefits bombers so much it would be a waste to switch to fighters. Although saving 2 IPC per unit is nice, being able to bombard any territory or sea zone on the map at will is much too good to give up on - and thats what long range bombers do!

I think subs are underestimated…
I like them a lot more than the Cruiser for instance. The extra cost of 6 IPC’s doesn’t make up for the shore bombardment and extra punch.
Now, let’s take a look at their advantages:
-subs are CHEAP! 6 IPC’s for a naval hit is dirt cheap!
-subs are invulnerable to lone enemy aircraft => this allows them to swim around Europe/Pacific avoiding those German/Japanese ftrs.
-subs can’t attack airplanes, and apart from DD’s, other sea units are more expensive than airplanes. As a result, if a fleet has got only 1 DD, it won’t stand a sub attack, because the expensive carriers, cruisers, and battleships will be the first to get hit. This is often underestimated!
-subs have a greater mobility than other fleet units because they can’t be attacked without an enemy DD.

disadvantages:
-1 defense is little, even for 6 IPC’s. Don’t count on subs to stand tall against an organized attack.
-subs can’t hit air, but air with DD can hit subs
-subs don’t like a lot of DD’s (a single DD is seldom a problem)

To summarize: I like subs a lot the way they are implemented now. And I think Germany building a sole sub fleet is a viable strategy. If you just don’t let the British navy too close, the subs+air will keep the baltic.

LHTR fixes some issues with box rules.  You can find the rules, and a discussion about them, on Larry’s site.

Thank you for the answer, Kreighund

While I think the SUBs are much improved over Revised OOTB, I feel they are still to vulnerable and not very cost effective.

Do you know if Sub Detection rules or Convoy Raid type rules were ever considered, either during the development or playtesting phase.  I suppose they may have been considered too complex by either WOTC or Mr. Harris, but I do feel this is the one thing that the game is really missing.