How do subs work?

@s.farresque:

Hi,
I too have been searching for answers but in a simple sub vs. sub context. Manual, pg 18,“Step 2, General Combat…both attacking and defending submarines can choose to either make a Surprise Strike or Submerge…”,pg 30,“Submarines, Special Abilities, Submersible:…The decision is made before any dice are rolled by either side (the attacker decides first) and takes effect immediately.”, this is reasserted on pg 4 of the March 2009 FAQ, “Submarines Q. Exactly when is the decision made whether or not to submerge submarines? A. The decision whether to submerge submarines is made before any dice are rolled by either side in an exchange of fire , and the subs submerge immediately. The attacker decides before the defender.”. “Decides” does not equate to “attacks”.
BGG Axis and Allies Anniversary Edition, Forum, Rules, Sept, 2009, “Can a submarine ever be attacked without a destroyer present because of the ability to submerge first”. Kevin Chapman ( Patron) answers,“…so a sub can only attack another sub if the defender chooses to fight (or there is an attacking destroyer)”.
BGG (as above), in " subs vs other naval units", has other useful comments by Kevin Chapman and Don Moody on this subject.
I like the imagery of this implementation. A lone sub,or two causing isolated mayhem before sinking into the depths or just driving for their pens, until, at the slightest indication of an attack,“Dive, dive dive”. What is wrong with that…until a destroyer turns them from buccaneers of the sea into desperate survivors hoping only to escape!.
Cheers.

Was there a question in there somewhere?  You initially said you were searching for answers but never really asked any question(s).  Just trying to end your search for answers

Thanks guys. Understand now. Looking forward to starting a game after work tonight 😊

Don’t have revised or dday(have everything else) ….hence my ignorance…sorry

@General:

In every game of axis and allies AA I have played… Subs havebeen useless.  Nobody has ever bought any subs.  Destroyers are so esily obtained and massed with a fleet they provide cover from subs.  Germany was famed for its “wolfpack” but in AA germany doesnt even get to build a fleet unless the allies are losing hard.

Can anyone advocate the use of subs for any power in the game?

I can’t.

Sorry if I repeat someone but here goes:

Point of Submarines:

If you build a significant number of them before the enemy, and the enemy cannot keep up with destroyers, you can have a cheaper win.

Odds of Success:

Minimal at best.  Your opponent would have to be pretty dense to let you amass a huge fleet of submarines without having at least 50% that number in defensive destroyers/bonus hits on battleships to soak them.

Realistic Outcome:

Either no one has submarines, or everyone has submarines and no one has a surface fleet.  It just seems that’s where things pan out.  This is awesome since no one can really win the game without surface ships since both sides have an island capitol.

Oh, I’m not saying I proposed the perfect attack force.  Certainly if you ONLY care about the BBs and not the subs, an ALL airforce attack force would be best.  I just took the OP’s germany attack force and modulated it as he suggested - first removing the DDs (which as I expected gave him a slight improvement) and then replacing them with additional subs as he described.

when you say ‘5 bom, 1 CA, 4 sub, 0 DD against 4 BB and 4 sub is less then 7%.’ I’m not sure what you’re saying or where you get that from.  The sim I used said it would be about 9% to clear the zone completely and only about 4% possiblity that any of the BB’s survive.  Maybe I’m doing something wrong, or the Sim I’m using is buggy with its order of loss.  :?  Any hits from the fodder boats (CA, 4 Sub) would be taken first against the subs, but once those fodder boats are gone, or the subs are gone, it’s bombers against BBs. and most times it seems the Bombers should win out.

Now that I think about it, the one thing that may not be factored into the sim is that it would make sense for the defender to take any boat hit against the defending subs.  The sim probably automatically assigns the first 4 hits to damage the BBs even if they come from other boats, which would be sub-optimal, given the bombers can ONLY hit the BBs, so you want to direct any non-Bomber hits to the subs.  I guess it would take a pretty clever sim to really get good numbers on this.  :|

@Gallo:

@Krieghund:

@Gallo:

2.a) they shoot before the attacker, and if roll at 1, if they score attacking unit sinks before having the chance of attacking – if attacking unit is a BB she can take the torpedo hit and attack anyway, but if it’s a Cruiser she goes to the bottom right there without dropping a single deep charge.

This is true if there’s no attacking desrtoyer.  If there is an attacking destroyer, the sub fires at the same time as the attacker(s) and the results are simultaneous.

yes, as I’ve stated, I was assuming no enemy destroyer attacking.
buy what does it means that “the sub fires at the same time”?
1.Attacker rolls
2.Defender select casualties
3.Defender moves casualties to casualty zone
4.Defender (subs) rolls
5.Attacker selects casualties
6.Everybody removes casualties.

that’s how it is, right?

Yes.

@Gallo:

@Krieghund:

@Gallo:

2.b) can submerge after attacker roll

If there’s no enemy destroyer, subs may submerge instead of rolling.  This can be done in any combat round, including the first, so a sub can submerge instead of firing before the attacker fires if desired.

yes, I’m always assuming no enemy destroyer attacking at this point…
but again, just to clarify:

If an attacking fleet with no destroyer moves into a sz defended by a submarine… the submarine can just choose to submerge without fighting? I mean: nobody fires? not even a first round?
Example: four British Battleships moves into a sz where there is just one single German submarine to attack it (I know that British can ignore it, but say that they want to sink that annoying U-Boat)… and the German sub can chose to submerge avoiding even the first attack?

Yes.

@Gallo:

@Krieghund:

@Gallo:

If there’s a destroyer present, subs can’t do their sneak-attack (2.a doesn’t work), and they can’t submerge

True.  They then fire at the same time as everything else.

again, by firing at the same time you mean the 6 steps mentioned above, right?

Yes.

Subs submerge before any dice are rolled, attacker first then defender.  At the time the USA player rolled his hits, the decision should have already been made and acted upon.

Yes, this is correct.  Having no destroyers is a pretty big mistake.