I edited my last post here above with adjustments for plane shots. Since I need to give a Destroyer some kind of
defense against planes when there on there own and not having to give ships boosts with this and that
will go with what I have. At least Planes can get killed in 1st round and beyond and with 1 ship blocking stops 3 ships from other side. So lets say you have 1 Destroyer and 1 Cruiser out blocking. Now if planes just come in to attack the 2 blockers in my game at least the CR DD get a plane shot defense.
D12
Cruiser D@3 plane 25%
Destroyer D@1 plane 8% = 33%
VS say
2 N. Figs A@8. 66%
But then some say ships should get no plane shots period. Ya but in D6 games they are getting plane shots which are to high or strong.
D6
Cruiser D@3 plane 50%
Destroyer D@2 plane 33% = 83%
Vs
2 Figs A@8 66%
After doing some testing with certain size fleets, the results are with BB CR AC getting plane shots @3, DD @1 you lose more planes in early rounds. But also you lose planes from no Carriers to land planes unless your the attacker and you have movement left and you control an island in same sea zone or one close by. Defending planes can retreat also after 1 round of combat and any carrier planes could land on an island they control in same sea zone. Plus if you attack a fleet next to an island with an airbase you can scramble 3 Figs or N. Figs or combination of both. Whats great is Tac and Dive bombers can hit on a 5 but a roll of 3 or less can pick target. Now it seems in testing the Air Craft Carriers are getting Targeted more due to having no place for carrier planes to land. Remember you can’t take a plane casualty on a ship only hit. Plus also a lot of planes were lost in war due to crashes, no fuel left. bad engines and so. So with ships getting plane hits its making the ships weaker compared to d6 system and now you lose planes in all battle rounds and to any other source of plane loses that happened in war.
If you keep Cruisers @3 plane shot and DD @1 plane shot at least they can defend against planes if there in small fleets.
Only thing left is how the outcomes are with @3 plane shots or @2 planes shots for BB CR and AC.
DD and Transports get a @1 plane shot but that is only 8% chance of a hit. You can’t just not give a lone Destroyer no defense against planes only. Same situation as lone transports. They had AA guns.
Granted if you had 10 Destroyers in a huge fleet ya there gonna get a plane kill or 2 maybe and they should.
12 Destroyers on average is 1 plane kill per round. D6 it be 12 Destroyers average 4 plane kills. But of course the Attacker defender chooses his casualties instead of you having to force them to pick a plane because there gonna take ships first.
At least its more historical the way I’m doing it in my game if you see what I mean.
It comes down to also do you give @3 for BB CR more punch when there a lone or now if you have 10 CR in a fleet is it over powering against planes. Plus by adding a DD @1 plane shot probably have to keep BB CR @2 plane shot and force you to have destroyers at all times like it was in war.
Another thing is you can’t land planes on an island unless it has an air strip or an airbase. Some my argue ya but you can land planes on land territories but not islands. You base it off of islands to small or due to bad terrian and also lack of equipment to
on island to build air strips.
Ive always liked the idea of buying a Minor IC and air and naval bases at Capitals only and then you could move them on transports to certain territories to build pieces and land planes and build repair naval units. There convoy ships too.
Yo Barnee, looks like I’m gonna go with a different values for ship AA and plane vs plane.
Going back to normal values for pieces with 1 dice roll only. But if any piece rolls a 1 outside of a Carrier gets a bonus plane kill.
Like this.
BB AD@8. Roll a 1 receive the bonus plane hit plus ship hit. Thats it. Makes things easier for guys to remember and will speed up some battles.
Fig AD@5. Roll a 1 gets a bonus plane hit too plus a GR /SH/ or plane hit.
This will force the attacker or defender to at least have to take a plane casualty in early rounds. No dog fighting.
AC D@4 plane only.
@SS-GEN yea I like it. Simple and accomplishes the goal of more detailed air/naval battle. Good job
Barnee and Co.
Been testing these new piece values and it makes for an interesting casualty picks. WE made figs get a @2 instead of a @1 against bonus plane hit. So here’s the list and what will use next game in 9 days.
BB AD@8 if roll is a 1 get a AA plane kill too.
CR AD@7 if roll is a 1 get a AA plane kill too.
DD AD@3 if roll is a 1 get a AA plane kill too.
AC D@3 plane only Dam D@2 plane only.
Fig AD@5 if roll is a 2 or less get a DF plane kill too.
N. Fig AD@4 if roll is a 2 or less get a DF plane kill too.
Tac AD@5 if roll is a 1 get a DF plane kill too.
also if roll is a 3 or less can pick target.
Dive AD@5 if roll is a 1 get a DF plane kill too.
also if roll is a 3 or less can pick target.
Now will see if we need to adjust the Tac and Dive bomber values.
May need to go to AD@4 if roll is a 1 get a DF plane kill too.
also if roll is a 3 or less can pick target.
Here’s an example battle. To right of piece is what they get.
Attacker: Plane kill. Ship/plane kill.
BB rolls a @1. 1 hit 1 hit
CR rolls a @5. miss 1 hit
DD rolls a @2. miss 1 hit
AC rolls a @6. miss XXX
NF rolls a @2. 1 hit 1 hit
NDB rolls a @3. miss 1 pick
VS
Defender: Plane kill. Ship/plane kill.
BB rolls a @8. miss 1 hit
CR rolls a @5. miss 1 hit
DD rolls a @12. miss miss
AC rolls a @3. 1 hit XXX
NF rolls a @4. miss 1 hit
NDB rolls a @2. miss 1 pick
So attacker gets 2 plane kills and 4 hits + 1 pick hit
Defender gets 1 plane kill and 3 hits + 1 pick hit.
You gettin this ?
D6 system
BB AD@4. + AA d12 @1. Plane kill too
CR AD@3 + AA d12 @1. Plane kill too
DD AD@2. + AA.d12 @1. Plane kill too
Fig.AD@4. + DF. d12 @2. Plane kill too
Tac AD@3. + DF d12 @1 Plane kill too
So now just throw 1. d12 with each normal d6 attack or defend roll.
You could even make a d12 hit die for this.
Edited this but it wont give me a space between plane kill and ship/plane kill.
Ok. Show down at the Generals Fortress this Sat. Have 8 guys. I will sit out for a bit and help with a new guy until he has to leave then I’ll take over. Then may have to jump to axis side late afternoon.
Well Barnee we are going to see how the new tweaks work out.
On the list for maybe some tweaks.
Tac/Dive AD@5 down to @4.
BB AD@8 down to @7.
CR AD@7 down to @6.
And if that happens then Figs against navy only
AD@4.
That’s it. Let’s see what happens. Report Sunday with pics
OK. We got the game in and the Axis won in 9 turns. Moscow fell and then Stalingrad and Germany was able to get to the Mideast oil and Japan did enough to hold on for win.
It was probably are best game so far.
The new values or rules for ship AA and plane vs plane bonus plane kills worked out great. It was nice to see a plane get killed for each round of combat across the board.
Wasn’t over powering and it added some more spice to game.
The Axis got probably there best 2 NA’s for each country and it was gonna be a tough battle for the Allies. Axis had 30 points 3 times and Allies knocked it down to 29 points twice until T9 which at end of turn they had 30 points and won.
I don’t know if Russia made any mistakes due to the fact I was playing UK Pacific and we had to deal with 10 axis subs in the Atlantic and that went on for 6 rounds with still 1 Italian sub survived the whole game.
If you wanted to see the battle of thee Atlantic it was there in game again.
Italy went a lot towards Cairo and got it. due to the fact UK and US had to spend money more on Destroyers and a few Tacs to kill those German subs plus Germany had sub Interdiction on top of that and it was costing UK some money plus another 10 icps in convoy raiding costs per turn until Allies got it under control.
The key for Axis is to keep UK income low as long as possible so it delays a landing.
Allies did take Oslo for last ditch effort but couldn’t get another point back on the rest of map. Here’s some pics of game with the General’s hard at work.
This pic is of the German and Italian subs with Allies during the battle of the Atlantic.
This pic shows only 1 Axis sub in convoy box which it survived the whole game.
This pic is the turn where Germany is going in to Moscow and will capture it. The German units are on the coaster.
This was a great game and a great day. I played as the Italians… I chose the Italians since I had never been to one of SS Gen s games and didn’t know the rules well and --well wanted to watch and learn as well… As the Italians I did the normal of building a fleet and concentrating on the Med. as well as sending some armor up to help Germany as a can opener… I didn’t need to send my armor since they only took the Ukraine and then headed west. The German player - Ryan - did a bang up job… His first turn he got an event card that gave him 2 subs and with what was in the Atlantic as well as my two subs we were able to cause a lot of havoc to the allies… In fact so much so that the US spent at least 90% of there money in the Atlantic the entire game!!! As stated above one of my Italian subs just wouldn’t die and lived throughout the game hitting the allies for either 3 or 4 ipcs of convoy damage… --It was glorious!!! lol… Just to add Germany did buy 2 subs the first two turns so he did spend money on the battle of the Atlantic to great effect.
Germany was able to build a variety of units each turn and concentrated on shuttling infantry to Leningrad via his transports in the Baltic… With the UK not being able to use his bombers on the naval fleet it was able to survive the whole game. I liked the rule except when I wanted to use my Italian bomber in the Red sea on the British fleet… Germany was able to slowly push its way into Russia and take Moscow while holding off a combined US/UK fleet attempting to kill all those subs that were staying alive in the Atlantic!! The UK and the US were able to take both Normandy and Western France with a large force but had to bail to take Oslo to get a victory city or lose… The Italians kept plugging away in Africa and with enough build up were able to take Cairo for another victory point… The two national capabilities that I had rolled for the Italians were Bravado and Black Shirts… Bravado gave my infantry an attack of 3 on a 12 sided dice and a defense of 5 on a 12 sided dice for defense with Black shirts… I bought a lot of infantry and attacked with them.
Germany was able to swing through with his armor into the middle east from both Africa - and Russia capturing Stalingrad and the middle east oil fields gaining more victory cities. I was able to hold the UK at bay in Africa because of all the subs killing convoy boxes in the Atlantic forcing him to spend less money in Africa then I think he could have spent… He did build a full force each turn in S Africa though as well as fleet units in the UK.
With all this happening in Europe it was hard to see all that was happening in Asia… I was seated south of Africa and could see India and Australia and they were reeling from the work that Carl was doing with the Japanese… And then it happened… Japan attacked the American fleet but didn’t use his combined fleet and lost badly – forcing him to redraw his plans… The US had 2 damaged battleships and 4 damaged carriers on the board that got away with an intact supporting fleet… This game was gonna go down to the wire… Japan kept trying different things - threatening Calcutta and then the US took the phillipines back and Japan sent his forces to retake it instead of Calcutta! Two event cards really hurt the UK during this game… One was a monsoon type weather thing that prevented him from moving units out of Calcutta for 1 turn… Which means his aircraft couldn’t be sent to Egypt and he couldn’t move his forces against the Japanese… It came at a critical time… Then 2 turns later when the troops are in Burma the UK player draws a similar card for Burma and they were stuck there… Boy did that help out the Japanese and the Axis in general.
I learned a lot and had a lot of fun…
Questions: Why are fighters only attacking at 5 and 5 on a d12 with the cost of 10, when a conversion would make them 6 and 8? They seemed expensive for the cost reduction… You can’t seem to rely on fighters to defend a territory with as much umph as you could before…
Naval fighters even got hurt more attacking and defending 4 and 4 on a d12 for a cost of 8. I have no idea how this worked in the Pacific and may have worked well.
Thank you Mark for this great game report and for showing up to play for the game from a far distance of travel. Really appreciate it ! With Carl playing (4 games now) and you playing Italy helped Germany and speed up game a bit.
I’ll try to explain the planes attack, defense and costs and why there that way in game.
Bombers are to strong in any game. As far as no naval attack and reduced planes values is based on planes shouldn’t win all battles. I know that some bombers did kill ships but then where do you draw the line for them. I still have on list bombers being able to hit navy carpet bombing A3@1 for 1 round only. Or A3@2.
As for figs and naval figs this gets tricky and the fig is the hardest piece to adjust to being to strong against navy but to weak against ground ( Inf D@4 ). Some good players that have been at game and see the fig being lower agree and even Carl said figs to strong against ships. The Axis did lose 14,000 planes in the Pacific.
From history the naval fighters were a bit weaker and they had less armor or weight to land on Carriers than a fig. But of course US had the better navy figs as war went on but then you could always add those stronger pieces later in turns but for now we leave it where were at in game. If you add a stronger piece to an Allies then you need to add a stronger piece to Axis. Should mostly be 50 50 other wise then you are now affecting setups a bit. Not going there except for Russia or Germany if needed.
All pieces are based on cost for punch as close as possible. As mentioned before in some games how can 1 fig kill a Battleship.
Also in game The Tac/Dive bomber is your main killer in game and that was the way it was.
As for the fig value C10 M5 A&D@5 41% + getting a DF plane kill @2 16% same battle is considered A&D@7 58%. But gets 2 kills. Plus a extra 1 move. Game is not based on where you can buy an airbase and just put anywhere.
You mentioned fig A6 D8 = A50% & D66%. This gets you 1 kill.
The reason for the ship AA ( big guns shooting at ships and anti air guns same time ) and plane Df ( some planes just attacking planes ) kill should be there and this forces the attacker or defender having to take a plane casualty in early rounds and not having just planes saved at an end of a battles. Thats crap. Planes where getting shot down during all battles and not at the end only. I asked Carl and he said keep it the same and Justin said same thing. I was asking them if Destroyer was to strong at C6 M2 AD@3 + get a AD@1 AA plane kill. If you have 8 destroyers ya you should get a better chance for a plane kill but also the Destroyer is mostly the first pick for casualties so its not over powering. If you raise cost to 7 will it hurt rest of countries ?
The fig would be way to strong across the board if you made it A6 D8 + DF @2 kill. Also Axis would have a huge Advantage in first 3 rounds.
Naval Fig C8 M4 AD@4 33% + gets a DF plane kill @2 16% = AD@6 50% but gets 2 kills too. So
Fig C10 M5 AD@5 41% + AD@2 16% plane kill = AD 116% chance of 2 kills & +1 move
N. Fig C8 M4 AD@4 33% + AD@2 16% plane kill = AD 100% chance of 2 kills
Fig C10 M4 A@6 50% & D@8 66% = 116% but only 1 chance of a kill.
Granted the percentages probably be lower than for my version if you wanted to go deeper some but it works.
Yes as you also mentioned you need to bring more ummp to battles. Sea more Destroyers ( why they cost 6 and were the pawns ) and ground an extra punch piece to decide somewhat more of a battles. If this hurts Russia in the long run we can always add a fig or a few more Inf to setup. But this game I believe Russia didn’t defend Moscow well enough. Plus with Italy and Germany not having to buy as much ground for Europe for early landing defense helped both countries big time. I’ve never seen Europe that empty. This gives the Axis a few extra turns ( due to the battle of the Atlantic going on ) to send ground east in Africa and Russia.
Also the fig values should make you buy more tac M5 /dive M4 bombers ( C10 AD@5 and if roll is a 3 or less can pick target ) and the cheaper naval fig is your fodder. In the Pacific its worth having 2 land figs on islands for intercept support but also help with fleets and naval planes being cheaper are used for fodder.
Well I hope this answered your questions.
So when you factor in costs and movement it should affect costs on a piece. As we play more the option of changing a piece value is always on the board and even can be adjusted during the game if caught early.
SS OUT!
Was indeed an awesome game! Thanks Mark (AAGamer) for joining us, was very nice to meet and play A&A with you. As always, thank you, Ray (SS GEN), for hosting such a glorious event. Please see some of the pics below that I took during the game.
US battles it out with Germany
Random map shot
In the background, Japan and US battle it out in the Pacific
Italy extends its’ reach in the Balkans.
I tell ya, I learn something new each time I play. Whether its success or failure, this game is so dynamic and fun. And it’s good to see a steady stream of players each month, let’s keep this momentum going all year long!
@Folgore77 Thanks Folgore!! I had a great time and it was great meeting you… The game has lighten a fire under me to play more A&A and trying to get people in my area to play… I plan on returning if I can beg–get Carl to drive again!! Hope to see you again!
Yo all General’s are to report to the “Generals Fortress” this Saturday Oct. 19 at 8:30 am for “Operation Justice” !
Game will be taped and hopefully live streamed.
We will be playing with the new Stg. Bomber values and Fig values.
Fig C8 M5 AD@5 ground. AD@4 naval ships.
Stg. Bomber C8 M6 A 3@3 1 round only still. D2 SBR 1d6+1
H. Bomber C10 M7 A 4@3 1 round only still. D3 SBR 1d6+3
@SS-GEN Good luck guys!! Wish I could make it… So jealous you guys are playing! Good luck @Folgore77 !!! SS-Gen I hope you have a good plan for Japan – you will need it… I here Dan has a plan!!
@AAGamer said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
@SS-GEN Good luck guys!! Wish I could make it… So jealous you guys are playing! Good luck @Folgore77 !!! SS-Gen I hope you have a good plan for Japan – you will need it… I here Dan has a plan!!
ppff… Ya I heard Dan has a plan, Retreat !!!
@SS-GEN haha
OK, We had another epic game with the Axis winning in 7 turns. I’ll give my input on what I saw happen and if any group member wants to chime in and give a more detailed account of there country.
I played Japan. Took Midway T1 ( Moved carriers out of US range for counter attack non combat ) and Solomon islands and New Britain to Deny US & Anzac 2 Island group NOs and Japan then gained 3 Island NOs for a 15 bonus icps turn 1 plus 1 Island group NO they start with for another 5. Did the normal Asian attacks and then went for money islands and for the 2 bonus victory
points to help Germany and for axis win. Granted when you leave the 3 Island groups NOs US and Anzac does come and get them due to Japan leaving. Thats the trade off. But Japan should always I mean always have to control Dutch Island oil period in any game towards a win or victory bonus points. So on T7 Japan got back 2 Dutch islands with Refinery’s ( no damage ) for 2 bonus points plus japan had fighter interceptors on island to protect there Refineries from being damaged by Allie bombers and the allies could not take back by end of the turn. US had only 1 bomber in Calcutta and no fig escorts to bomb Dutch Refineries do deny axis bonus points. Japan had 6 figs on Sumatra.
I also think the US fleet should of moved from Carolinas to the Dutch Islands instead going towards Toyko for another 3 island group NO ( worth 5 icps ) and help with denying Japan from getting a victory bonus point or 2 ? Just IMO. It took the US fleet out of position there for 2 turns at least.
Europe side. All I know is Germany abandoned Paris and lost with West Germany Plus UK got Oslo and Germany got Moscow and Stalingrad while US UK were constantly SBRing Italy and Berlin. Italy was a power house. New guy Tony was Buying for strict Neutral influence after he got control of the the 2 3 island group NOs and got Congo, Anglo & Turkey and was threating S. Africa but UK just had enough defense to deny an Axis 1 victory point there so thats where Japan had to come in for the 2 bonus points and 1 Victory bonus point for Axis total income which was higher than 210. They were in the 220s if not higher.
Also the UK abandoned Cairo to Italy for 1 victory point and went to Mideast oil to defend it from the Axis from getting another 1 victory bonus point while the Cairo fleet went towards India but the Italian fleet followed and the Cairo fleet ended up killing the Italian fleet with UK fighters from Calcutta. This did leave Calcutta weak and there was 25 Japan ground units in Thailand for a future attack but was best to spread them ground troops to protect Japan controlled Dutch Islands for a win. If UK would of flew the 6 UK figs out of S. Africa to support Calcutta then S. Africa would have fallen due to a strong presence of Italian troops right there to attack.
US took Azores T1 to help deplete the German wolf packs by end of T3. The trade off there was no US pressure in Med to slow down Italy I believe needs to happen in game now.
US was making 120 icps at end of T6.
Final tally. Axis starts with 20 victory points.
Axis points start 20
lost Paris -3 = 17
lost Oslo -1 = 16
Cairo +1 = 17
Moscow +3 = 20
Stalingrad +2 = 22
Leningrad +2 = 24
Hong Kong +1 = 25
Manilla +1 = 26
Maylay +1 = 27
Dutch Oil +2 = 29 2 Refineries cannot have damage.
Axis income +1 = 30
Total is 30 victory points. Need 30 at end of any turn for an axis victory.
The new lower costs for figs C8 AD@4 naval & AD @5 ground with still bonus plane kill @2 and Stg Bombers C8 AD #@3 bonus plane kill @1 also. I believe worked out good plus made Sbring from a d8 +1 to a D6 +1 still good enough in game. Plus figs could only hit naval @4 while Ground it was @5. I used Stg bombers a lot and they were pretty weak. Will have to see if they go back to A 4@3.
Was gonna live stream but camera was not correct as far as closeness of map. I’ll see if I can post at least a video tape of game sample.
