General 6 Stars 1941 WW2 Game

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Well for 2 icps more the Tac Dive getting to pick target 3 or less is worth the extra cost for what I’ve seen in games.
I’ll have to look at this again. Was gonna drop it to AD@4 and can pick target.
AD@5 and can pick target may be to strong. I’ll check it out still.
As for the secondary hits its getting to confusion now and besides your saying Figs get a normal AD@4 naval kill plus if roll is a @2 plane kill and instead you want the @2 to go against a ship so the ships take 2 hits and nothing against the planes ? Then you have more planes again and thats not the idea if I have this right.

As far as carriers getting a ship hit I can see that too because they did have 5" guns.
But its already hard now in game if you don’t bring attacking carriers to battles for plane kills. If you give a carrier a @1 bonus ship kill makes them stronger. I can still see giving them that. AA Carrier @1 bonus ship shot ain’t gonna do you know good with just planes attacking. Destroyers are now even bigger in battles as pawns for Capital ships to survive.

Not exactly what I was saying about Fg, but it can be simpler to use only “1” as special roll for a double hit.
I was saying that if there is no enemy’s plane, Fighter can do double hits upon naval or ground on a “1” roll.

To simplify your critical hit system, use only “1” roll.
Fighter C8 M5 A5 D5 targeting aircraft first. But, on “1” hit an additional unit, naval or ground.
Naval fighter C8 M4 A4 D5, … same.
Carrier A0 D3 targeting aircraft, but on “1” hit an additional naval unit. On “2 or 3”, if there is no aircraft, then no hit.
TcB C10 M5 A6 D5, pick ground or naval target, on “1”, hit an additional aircraft.
DiveB C10 M4 A5 D5 pick ground or naval target, on “1”, hit an additional aircraft.

Because aircraft and carrier have so low combat values I would put Fleet Carrier A0 D3* at 12 IPCs and Escort A0 D2* at 7 IPCs.

So where on same page there is only 1 die roll per piece.
For the fighters you want more kills early on planes. Is this your air superiority idea ?
Most guys won’t play that way.
Why N figs higher in defense ?
This due to yes they were pretty good ? Or part of your carrier weak defense. It should be the Tac five jobs to do most killing. 2 N figs should not be able to kill a BB that easy. So I can see N fig staying at D4 but increasing the Tac Dive picture target at a 5 period. You got to remember we have a good idea how these planes work now in games.
Tac bomber A6 picking piece is pretty strong.
Carriers I can see giving a 1 roll an extra naval ship hit but cost of 12 would make it where US could build a complete one at 28 icps instead of 34 icps. Is this based on all the US carrier builds in war. But then not right if rest countries get it. Could make this C12 an US NA instead.
I may raise the fig bonus plane kill to a 3 or less roll to counter your idea.
That’s why if carriers weak then u shouldn’t leave them undefended that’s why dest or huge like they were in war. Plus don’t leave your fleet in a sz without an AB on an island for 3 support figs for scramble or attack.

I’m also saying with the last list we used we had the best 2 games being the last 2 games we played. Im giving guys a huge amount of credit for dealing with these changes the last 4 games with dealing with 2 different scenarios of ship aa and plane vs plane. We are going to stick with what we have now so 4 new guys can get used to game to.

Well when I look at numbers my AC and N. fig or AC Dive bomb are just a bit better than g40. Save 6 Icps and 2 Icps.
Even better with AC C12. Save 8 Icps and 4 Icps & a bit stronger on defense.
Maybe I’m not seeing what your seeing.
Only way to make them stronger on defense is raising values.
G40
AC C16 A0 D2 .49 Now
AC C16 A1 .25 D3 .74
AC C14 A1 .32 D3 .96
AC C12 A1 .44 D2 .87
AC C12 A1 .44 D3 1.31

D12
AC C14 A0 D3 .48 Now
AC C14 A0 D4 .64
AC C14 A2 .32 D5 .80
AC C12 A2 .44 D5 1.09

This may not be the way above, but the other ships where screens for Carriers because yes the Carriers were weaker and making the planes even stronger defense is not the way to go keeping in mind the Carriers planes could be out of range a bit on defense, or reloading pay load or still on deck refueling even though rule says there always in air but there not all the time. My way of seeing it.

As far as planes taking hits first on planes that is leaning more towards Air Superiority and a game changer for battles.
I can see giving a fig a double hit if roll is a 1 too if no planes in battle on one side.

Another option is for figs and N. figs for plane kills is the roll is increased from a 2 to a 3.
Fig C8 AD@5 + roll a 3 or less get a plane kill too. This maybe to strong too. Did a few tests.
6 figs @2 = 1 ave bonus plane kill.
4 figs @3 = 1 ave bonus plane kill.

Also I looked at your idea of taking planes first on normal hits and looking back at the Moscow battle when it fell last game it would of been worse for Russia with having to take plane hits first. Ger had 13 figs and Russia 6. They would of lost them by round 3. I’m just saying with taking plane hits first this is a Air Superiority thing going on. Once Russia loses there figs then now Ger figs hits go towards ground. I do get it but I think its to strong.

I went back an edit numbers. Thought you said 2 hit pieces you double. Funny thing is when I double the BB that’s how I adjust for CR DD. Anyway another day for that.

I see like 4 options here. First one I would do is lower AC cost. D6 system.
AC C12 A0 D2 .87 vs DD C7 .98
Other option is lowering Planes costs ( lower D ) or raise DD costs.
AC C12 D2 .87
Fig C8 D4 1.50
Tac C8 D3 1.13 roll a 1 can pick target.
DD C7 A2 .98
AC C12 D2 .87 + 2 figs C16 D8 3.00 = C28 D10 3.87 1.6 hit
3 DD C21 D6 2.97 = 2.97 ave 1.0 hit
AC C12 D2 .87 + 2 Tacs C16 D6 = C28 D8 2.26 1.3 hit
3 DD C21 D6 2.97 = 2.97 ave 1.0 hit

3 DD C24 D6 2.25 = 2.25 ave 1.0 hit
Just thoughts here. Can change plane prices too.

As for your suggestions in above post will look at. Next game 2 weeks.

Hi Baron. Ya I know about the divide by 3 for full carrier.
We played with Figs AD@4 with 1 round of dog fight. The fighter was to weak for ground vs Inf.
So we raised it back to AD@5 and added bonus plane kill and dropped the DF round.
The reason for N. fig being lower AD@4 is based on they only had I believe big bullets and most didn’t carry bombs or torpedos
except maybe US later in war. 2 N. figs should not get to kill a battleship. So we made it some what OK now and besides land fighters were better than N. figs and the other reason why we made land fighters AD@4 naval only is based on the Axis have a huge advantage and its to strong for Japan.
I just researched N figs. yes they did have bombs on them. So I’m going to look at making figs and N. figs D@5 against naval units.

You do realize that most attacking fleets don’t bring there Carriers to the battles so the defending Carriers being attacked have the advantage already with D@3 plane and taking 2 hits ?

Well looks like we’re going with next game Carriers cost 12 and figs and n figs AD@5 and if roll is a 2 or less kill a bonus DF plane.
Tac / Dive will stay AD@5 if roll is a 3 or less pick target

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Well looks like we’re going with next game Carriers cost 12 and figs and n figs AD@5 and if roll is a 2 or less kill a bonus DF plane.
Tac / Dive will stay AD@5 if roll is a 3 or less pick target

It keeps a randomized factor about picking target or not.
On paper, TcB/DvB A6D6 C10 with “3” or less pick target seems to me a better fit in your roster cost structure.
Not as high as Cruiser A7 C9, but better than Sub A5 C7. Also, making it @6 make for a better trophy when rolling a “1”.

But, since Carrier is lowered to 12 IPC and NFg A5D5 C8, a fully loaded CV Fg+DvB bring more punch aboard for the price.

Also, you also have a lots of in-game infos feedbacks about TcB, DvB killing ratio and balance in naval or land combat to count on. Did you make AAA similar to Carrier but on land?

What is the main difference between TcB vs DvB? Range?

You may consider giving +1 bonus damage to TcB vs DvB, land based can lift more payloads at least…

Besides, are you going to see Midway movie?

I’ll look at the Tac/Dive bomber AD@6 roll 3 or less pick target but as mentioned the N. Fig has been raised in AD.
Now its easier for guys & new where 4 planes are now AD@5. Fig, N. Fig, Tac & Dive. So for the 2 extra cost for Tac & Dive bomber is for can pick target. Granted the Dive can only move 4 but its on a Carrier.

AAA similar to Carrier on land I’m assuming AAA gun D@3 against planes. The answer here is no not yet but it is on table for future changes. Also Subs C7 A@4 D@2 pick target or C7 A@5 D@2 if roll is a 1 pick target.

Difference between Tac and Dive Bombers are Dive Bombers can only move 4. Tacs can move 5.

Ya I might go see Midway. I got a bud that goes to movies on opening day so I wait for his Imput.

There is some option changes out there yet.
DD C7 A3 .73
AC C12 D3 .65
N. Fig C8 D5 .94
Dive C10 D5 .60 = 2.19
C30 D13 = 2.19 .73
3 DD A9 C21 = 2.19 .73

DD C6 A3 1.00
AC C12 D4 .87
N Fig C8 D5 .94
Dive C8 D5 .94 = 2.75
C28 D14 = 2.75 .91
3 DD C18 A9 = 3.00 1.00
Good chance land AAA gun goes to D@3. Depends on if there’s
Spam plane buys. Definetly be easier if all planes C8 and AD@5.
The issue in game is with planes is from what I’ve seen in over 80 games at least
are is one side always is either to weak or to strong because its land planes mostly
in Europe and N planes in Pacific and of course extra land figs from Japan.

Remember BB CR DD each if roll is a 1 get a
bonus AA plane kill same time.

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN

Personally, I like this new Sub: C7 A@5 D@2 ***if roll is a 1 pick target
I seee interest of these 4 being similar:
Now its easier for guys & new where 4 planes are now AD@5. Fig, N. Fig, Tac & Dive.

Personally, if all aircraft go at Cost 8, I like this variation: bombers being A5 D4 while Fighters being A4 D5.
Bombers being better on offense, Fighters better in defense (kind of air interdiction).

This would definitely be my choice:
DD C6 A3 1.00
AC C12 D4 .87
N Fig C8 D5 .94
Dive C8 D5 .94 = 2.75
C28 D14 = 2.75 .91
3 DD C18 A9 = 3.00 1.00

But, can Carrier still be OK with @4 vs aircraft?

If a lot of Axis aircraft go into Europe, my guess is that AAA must be at Cost 4.
You may try to make them more affordable and efficient to help USSR.
Maybe, @2 against up to 4 aircraft each round, but 3 IPCs, only.
I don’t remember how it works and values in your game.

Also, a different mechanic maybe use to help defend against many attacking aircrafts:
In land combat, a “1” roll can be applied to AAA instead of a precious aircraft.
So, Fg or TcB attacking rolling “1” allowed defender to pick AAA unit as the critical hit effect.
But if “2” was rolled for attacking Fg then defender must hit his aircraft.

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN

Personally, I like this new Sub: C7 A@5 D@2 if roll is a 1 pick target.
YES I DO TOO.
I see the interest of these 4 being similar:
Now its easier for guys & new where 4 planes are now AD@5. Fig, N. Fig, Tac & Dive.

Personally, if all aircraft go at Cost 8, I like this variation: bombers being A5 D4 while Fighters being A4 D5.
Bombers being better on offense, Fighters better in defense (kind of air interdiction).
YA BUT FIGS DO HAVE BETTER PLANE VS PLANE KILL THAN A BOMBER
This would definitely be my choice:
DD C6 A3 1.00
AC C12 D4 .87
N Fig C8 D5 .94
Dive C8 D5 .94 = 2.75
C28 D14 = 2.75 .91
3 DD C18 A9 = 3.00 1.00
YES I LIKE THIS A LOT TOO.
But, can Carrier still be OK with @4 vs aircraft?
YA GOES TO @3 WHEN DAMAGED.
If a lot of Axis aircraft go into Europe, my guess is that AAA must be at Cost 4.
You may try to make them more affordable and efficient to help USSR.
Maybe, @2 against up to 4 aircraft each round, but 3 IPCs, only.
I don’t remember how it works and values in your game.
WITH AAA GOING TO C4 WON’T MATTER WHEN U CAN ONLY USE 1 GUN.
Also, a different mechanic maybe use to help defend against many attacking aircrafts:
In land combat, a “1” roll can be applied to AAA instead of a precious aircraft.
So, Fig or TcB attacking rolling “1” allowed defender to pick AAA unit as the critical hit effect.
But if “2” was rolled for attacking Fig then defender must hit his aircraft.
GETTING TO COMPLEX NOW.
COULD MAKE ALL AA GUNS IN EUROPE & UK DEFEND @3 ONLY. OR ADD MORE AAA GUNS IN
RUSSIA SETUP.

Yes if a lot of aircraft in Europe makes the Germans to strong. Most battles don’t have defending planes unless its a Capital
attack where defending planes are used mostly or a victory city you need to hold to prevent an Axis victory.
Also Tac/Dive can single out AAA guns too on attack or defense at @4. You just can’t use them in the battle now. Its a one shot at AAA gun if it survives the AAA defending shot @2.

The highlited and Cap text is so you can see my answers. Sorry, but I can’t believe i can change color unless its there somewhere.

EDIT: This is what we may go with. Group discussing now.
Gave 3 options. Right now each option voted once. Will see.
AC C12 D4 1 AC 2 N figs C28 D14 .91
1 AC 1 N. fig 1 Dive C29 D13 .83
1 AC 2 Dive C30 D12 .78
3 DD C21 A9 1.00
Fig/N fig C8 A4 D5
Tac/Dive C9 A5 D4
SS C7 A5 D2 if roll is a 1 pick target.

This way it seems to be the counter for both sides of map
with Axis having more attacking figs than allies at start.

Yes attacking and defending planes can retreat after 1 round of combat or any round after1.

@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Yes attacking and defending planes can retreat after 1 round of combat or any round after1.

What did you observe about this rule during play?
Does defending player use it or forget to use it?

Is it a 1 move retreat for defender?

Yes it’s a 1 move only for defending planes.
I’ve seen it a battle with scrambling figs were defender lost a few planes from DF and if lost to many ships so best to save a plane or 2.
I used it as a defense in a land territory for 1 round and then land in a territory 1 move away but can’t to another territory being attacked.
Not much in pacific unless u are around islands you control.