We need an allied playbook.

@AldoRaine That’s a very interesting battle plan! I’m assuming your air base UK1 goes on Gibraltar. If you are not scrambling around London, not doing a Taranto raid, and not attacking Europe on UK1, then what stops Germany from sinking your fleet off Gibraltar with air power? Italy sinks the French fleet with a sub and planes, and then takes Morocco turn 1 with land units, cruisers, and battleship (i.e., enough power to fend off your 2 scrambling fighters), and then everything in Western Germany can reach SZ 92 on G2 and land in Morocco. If you’re leaving 2 fighters in London and buying AB, 1 inf, 1 ftr, then that leaves you with something like 1 CV, 1 DD, 1 CA, 3 ftr, 1 tac to defend SZ 92, right? Depending on what Germany bought G1, Germany should be able to bring something like 1 sub, 1 CA, 3 ftr, 3 tac, 3 bmr. At that point Britain has no boats in the water from Canada all the way to the Red Sea, the Italian fleet is intact, Italy starts collecting NOs, and the USA could get caught between a J1 (because the Axis really don’t need a Sea Lion threat to make this strategy work) and a booming Italy. Russia will not be in extreme danger because Germany loses a few planes on the G2 attack, but all the land units can head toward Russia as normal, and the G2 purchase can easily include 10+ mech/tanks to get Barbarossa rolling.

Am I missing something?

@Argothair sz 92 is inside the Med so any attack by Germany is all Air Force. Plus Italy can only take Algeria which does give Germany the ability to land fighters but only ones from western Germany. I am willing to trade UK ships for the rest of the German air force almost every game.

No scramble G1? Not sure I like that. You can still have 1 fighter on Gibraltar and a full CV in SZ92. If there’s no J1 I don’t like using the SZ39 TT to activate Persia. Probably if there is a J1 DOW I still don’t like it.

If the Axis J1 DOW you can put a US fighter on Gibraltar. I guess the second worst case for the SZ92 fleet is a single scrambler, losing a plane in SZ96 and no J1 DOW. So 2DD, 2CA, 1CV, 2ftr defending. Hmm, possibly not enough. Worst case is losing SZ96.

Varies a fair bit if Germany takes Southern France because then Italy can bring its two fighters into an attack on SZ92.

Winning SZ96 is so critical for this plan, what do you send? 1ftr 1tac wins 97%, loses 2%. Do you surrender 2%?

@M36 So that is interesting. Yes Egypt can fall early R2 if Italy goes for it as you said but I have found that this is not an overall good idea (at least from my perspective). If Uk sets up a factory in Persia and kills Iraq in R2, both of which are easily doable, I see Italy going after Egypt as using good money to chase bad. The US is going to have to make its presence felt in the Europe and if Italy is busy moving troops to Egypt it means just that much less for it to defend itself with.

Italy has an uphill battle to break through Egypt and and then another uphill battle to break out past that if Uk is building factories and still has their navy. As far as i see it Italy has 1 turn of landing troops in Africa. After that if its navy moves out it is dead without significant investment.

I know how devastating the Italian can opener is so I just feel that this should be their focus. The game is not won or lost in Africa unless the Axis somehow end up with all of it. The game is won or lost in Russia.

@simon33 sorry i replied to the wrong person earlier. But the attack depends on the bid. Assuming BM and no bid I like to bring the UK bomber, 1 tac and 1 fighter and take that as a hit if it there is one.

Oh, OK, my mistake about the sea zone number – but if you’re going inside the Mediterranean, then how does the British navy prevent a German Sea Lion attack? Seems like there’s all kinds of possibilities for Italy to attack it (even if Italy doesn’t win, the British navy might be crippled), or for Germany to seal it in with a non-combat move into SZ 93…I’d be really nervous to build only 1 inf, 1 ftr in London, fly fighters to Gibraltar, and then sail the navy south. What’s left protecting London, exactly? I’m not 100% sure how I would stop the British Med navy from returning to defend London, but there’s got to be some way to do that.

I’m also really skeptical about this claim that you’re trading the British Med navy for “the rest of” the German air force. If you’re not scrambling, German air casualties should be very light – 1 or 2 planes even on a bad day.

@simon33 What do you usually use the Transport for then?

@AldoRaine I see your point but if Italy breaks Egypt on turn 2 then it can gain both a national objective and 4 or 5 IPCs in Africa without too much difficulty. A 20 IPC Italy is quite strong, especially with an intact navy.

@M36 Mostly agree, yeah. AldoRaine is right that Italy only gets one turn (Italy 1) to safely unload troops near Egypt before it needs to return to fighter cover near Rome…but that one turn might be all you need if UK is building nothing at all in South Africa / Egypt on UK1 and also evacuating the entire UK Med navy to send it west. You often want to come back to Rome anyhow on Italy 2 so you can reload with fresh infantry – and then you can send one or both of the transports to Egypt, naked, on Italy 3 if you need it to finish Egypt off. You could buy a replacement transport if you like – that way you could start Italy 4 with warships, a transport, Egypt, and some cash. Not too shabby.

I think there’s an assumption of no transports bought G1. So a skinny defense of London may be ok in that case. You’d have about half a dozen inf, 5AAA and at least one fighter. I guess not all the fighters are going to Gibraltar.

@AldoRaine If there’s no J1 DOW I’ll use it to activate Sumatra.

If there is a J1 DOW I may use it to grab troops from Malaya and stack Burma. Depends.

@Argothair I agree that puts Italy in a good spot but it also would make me as USA put a heavy focus on them. If Italy can hold off USA, push past Egypt and still can open for Germany then things are going extremely well for them.

Otherwise Germany will have to assist with defense and then all this has done is force Germany to spend money away from Russia.

The biggest problem this creates for the allies in my mind is how it gives Japan a lot of space. Which can lead to very bad things for the Allies.

@simon33 Yes Germany buying transports round 1 significantly changes your options as UK. It’s very risky sending your fighters away if Germany can bring 6-10 units plus the Luftwaffe on G2.

@AldoRaine said in We need an allied playbook.:

The biggest problem this creates for the allies in my mind is how it gives Japan a lot of space. Which can lead to very bad things for the Allies.

I hear you, comrade! I agree that if USA puts 80%+ into killing Italy, then Italy is not going anywhere useful from this opening, and Moscow will either fall late or not fall at all, so Europe looks pretty good for the Allies – but then you have to turn around and pivot and scramble to save Sydney or whatever. Which works great for a lot of players; some people are more comfortable than I am with that kind of emergency pivot. My personal preference (so far) is to look for Allied strategies that give you a reasonable chance of more-or-less containing the Axis all over the map – halt Italy near Sudan and Jordan, halt Germany near Norway and Bryansk, halt Japan near Burma and Borneo and the Carolines. If the Axis break out a little bit somewhere, fine, figure out how to deal with that – but don’t write off a whole theater as part of your opening strategy.

@M36 said in We need an allied playbook.:

@simon33 Yes Germany buying transports round 1 significantly changes your options as UK. It’s very risky sending your fighters away if Germany can bring 6-10 units plus the Luftwaffe on G2.

Germany doesn’t need to buy transports G1 for a successful Sea Lion if UK doesn’t buy 6 inf/1 fighter for London on UK1 AND have the ability to have 4+ fighters on London before G3.

Germany can easily buy 8 or 9 transports on G2 and bring 9 inf, 5 art, 4 tanks, 4 tacticals, and 4 fighters (leaving the sea zone for their cruiser and bombers). That’s a winning Sea Lion even if the UK buys the 6 inf and 1 fighter if Germany successfully max bombs London’s factory and sinks just 1 of the UK transports so that UK2 you can’t buy much again. It takes 5 fighters on UK to turn that away for sure, and the extra 8 inf you buy and bring home on transports.

@weddingsinger Indeed, I never had any luck personally with with max Sea Lion strategy though because the Russians roll on in when London falls.

@M36 try to buy 10 Inf in the very turn you attack.
You have to build up solidly.
Be prepared.

@Argothair One of the reasons I say the sz92 stack eliminates sea lion is that now the Germans have to fight through the Royal Navy to get to London. It seems it is most poplular for the Germans to place their major transport buy in the baltic. If they do this they only sz they can reach is sz110. UK sees this and moves the entire navy there to defend. Now Germany is forced to divert critical fighters to the air battle.

Since that is all ready turn 3, if Germany waits until next the US can start to reinforce London as well.

Things change if the transports are place in sz112. UK will have to defend both spots which helps considerably but the transports are also a much easier target for the US.