We need an allied playbook.

[AldoRaine]

@simon33 sorry i replied to the wrong person earlier. But the attack depends on the bid. Assuming BM and no bid I like to bring the UK bomber, 1 tac and 1 fighter and take that as a hit if it there is one.

[Argothair]

Oh, OK, my mistake about the sea zone number – but if you’re going inside the Mediterranean, then how does the British navy prevent a German Sea Lion attack? Seems like there’s all kinds of possibilities for Italy to attack it (even if Italy doesn’t win, the British navy might be crippled), or for Germany to seal it in with a non-combat move into SZ 93…I’d be really nervous to build only 1 inf, 1 ftr in London, fly fighters to Gibraltar, and then sail the navy south. What’s left protecting London, exactly? I’m not 100% sure how I would stop the British Med navy from returning to defend London, but there’s got to be some way to do that.

I’m also really skeptical about this claim that you’re trading the British Med navy for “the rest of” the German air force. If you’re not scrambling, German air casualties should be very light – 1 or 2 planes even on a bad day.

[AldoRaine]

@simon33 What do you usually use the Transport for then?

[M36]

@AldoRaine I see your point but if Italy breaks Egypt on turn 2 then it can gain both a national objective and 4 or 5 IPCs in Africa without too much difficulty. A 20 IPC Italy is quite strong, especially with an intact navy.

[Argothair]

@M36 Mostly agree, yeah. AldoRaine is right that Italy only gets one turn (Italy 1) to safely unload troops near Egypt before it needs to return to fighter cover near Rome…but that one turn might be all you need if UK is building nothing at all in South Africa / Egypt on UK1 and also evacuating the entire UK Med navy to send it west. You often want to come back to Rome anyhow on Italy 2 so you can reload with fresh infantry – and then you can send one or both of the transports to Egypt, naked, on Italy 3 if you need it to finish Egypt off. You could buy a replacement transport if you like – that way you could start Italy 4 with warships, a transport, Egypt, and some cash. Not too shabby.

[simon33]

I think there’s an assumption of no transports bought G1. So a skinny defense of London may be ok in that case. You’d have about half a dozen inf, 5AAA and at least one fighter. I guess not all the fighters are going to Gibraltar.

[simon33]

@AldoRaine If there’s no J1 DOW I’ll use it to activate Sumatra.

If there is a J1 DOW I may use it to grab troops from Malaya and stack Burma. Depends.

[AldoRaine]

@Argothair I agree that puts Italy in a good spot but it also would make me as USA put a heavy focus on them. If Italy can hold off USA, push past Egypt and still can open for Germany then things are going extremely well for them.

Otherwise Germany will have to assist with defense and then all this has done is force Germany to spend money away from Russia.

The biggest problem this creates for the allies in my mind is how it gives Japan a lot of space. Which can lead to very bad things for the Allies.

[M36]

@simon33 Yes Germany buying transports round 1 significantly changes your options as UK. It’s very risky sending your fighters away if Germany can bring 6-10 units plus the Luftwaffe on G2.

[Argothair]

@AldoRaine said in We need an allied playbook.:

The biggest problem this creates for the allies in my mind is how it gives Japan a lot of space. Which can lead to very bad things for the Allies.

I hear you, comrade! I agree that if USA puts 80%+ into killing Italy, then Italy is not going anywhere useful from this opening, and Moscow will either fall late or not fall at all, so Europe looks pretty good for the Allies – but then you have to turn around and pivot and scramble to save Sydney or whatever. Which works great for a lot of players; some people are more comfortable than I am with that kind of emergency pivot. My personal preference (so far) is to look for Allied strategies that give you a reasonable chance of more-or-less containing the Axis all over the map – halt Italy near Sudan and Jordan, halt Germany near Norway and Bryansk, halt Japan near Burma and Borneo and the Carolines. If the Axis break out a little bit somewhere, fine, figure out how to deal with that – but don’t write off a whole theater as part of your opening strategy.

[weddingsinger]

@M36 said in We need an allied playbook.:

@simon33 Yes Germany buying transports round 1 significantly changes your options as UK. It’s very risky sending your fighters away if Germany can bring 6-10 units plus the Luftwaffe on G2.

Germany doesn’t need to buy transports G1 for a successful Sea Lion if UK doesn’t buy 6 inf/1 fighter for London on UK1 AND have the ability to have 4+ fighters on London before G3.

Germany can easily buy 8 or 9 transports on G2 and bring 9 inf, 5 art, 4 tanks, 4 tacticals, and 4 fighters (leaving the sea zone for their cruiser and bombers). That’s a winning Sea Lion even if the UK buys the 6 inf and 1 fighter if Germany successfully max bombs London’s factory and sinks just 1 of the UK transports so that UK2 you can’t buy much again. It takes 5 fighters on UK to turn that away for sure, and the extra 8 inf you buy and bring home on transports.

[M36]

@weddingsinger Indeed, I never had any luck personally with with max Sea Lion strategy though because the Russians roll on in when London falls.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@M36 try to buy 10 Inf in the very turn you attack.
You have to build up solidly.
Be prepared.

[AldoRaine]

@Argothair One of the reasons I say the sz92 stack eliminates sea lion is that now the Germans have to fight through the Royal Navy to get to London. It seems it is most poplular for the Germans to place their major transport buy in the baltic. If they do this they only sz they can reach is sz110. UK sees this and moves the entire navy there to defend. Now Germany is forced to divert critical fighters to the air battle.

Since that is all ready turn 3, if Germany waits until next the US can start to reinforce London as well.

Things change if the transports are place in sz112. UK will have to defend both spots which helps considerably but the transports are also a much easier target for the US.

[M36]

@AldoRaine How about a destroyer block in 112 as well? Edit: Provided the Germans have stacked in the baltic like you said.

[weddingsinger]

@M36 Take a look at my thread about an efficient Sea Lion. Its key to use cede territory on the Baltic to Russia and move any non-Sea Lion troops to Romania, etc. to block the Russians there because you want the Russians to stay in the North. G5 you can use the Sea Lion transports to hit Norway, Finland, karaelia, Novgorod, Baltic States, and Poland.

Russia will be stronger, of course, but they should only get an extra 15-30 ipcs while Germany grabs the 30 ipcs from UK and has a shorter supply line to keep counter attacking… Its important not to telegraph Sea Lion on G1 so Russia is still buying slow infantry and trying to stack safely away from Germany. Then, if UK does Taranto and anything less than max London defense…

G1 buy 2 bombers (more details in the other thread)
G2 buy transports, maybe 1 destroyer if you can afford it (part of why I save 6 from G1)
G3 buy is navy to defend German transports, if needed, and more inf/art in case you don’t take London. These will get used on G5 anyway
G4 transports move to 112 and/or 113, buy fast movers with your 80ipcs
G5 transports used to counter attack Russians on coast of Baltics. Fast movers in Germany, W. Germany can work on Poland, etc.

A mechanized Russia strategy would be the best Allied counter after Sea Lion since it would allow Russia to get large numbers into German Europe quickly.

For me, usually a strong Taranto, UK max defending London with U.S. being prepared to help with a few bombers, UK moving into M.E. to support Russia is enough to shield Africa with existing troops and new planes if needed. If Italy doesn’t really help Germany and goes hard to Africa, then UK doesn’t drop 3 fighters a turn onto Moscow but hopefully that means Italy won’t be can opening for Germany over in Russia (or, not more than once).

[weddingsinger]

@M36 So that is interesting. Yes Egypt can fall early R2 if Italy goes for it as you said but I have found that this is not an overall good idea (at least from my perspective). If Uk sets up a factory in Persia and kills Iraq in R2, both of which are easily doable, I see Italy going after Egypt as using good money to chase bad. The US is going to have to make its presence felt in the Europe and if Italy is busy moving troops to Egypt it means just that much less for it to defend itself with.
.

Yeah, Italy should only have 1 transport and very few or zero ships to defend it after the 1st round. My UK movements mean they could take Cairo I2 (depending on various scenarios) but not keep it.

Usually I shift UK troops to Persia, Anglo-Egypt Sudan to take care of Italy in Ethiopia. If Italy goes Cairo I2, UK still has 1-2 transports to bring more guys back quickly. Usually a bomber and at least 1 fighter and 1 tactical to use, too.

[M36]

@weddingsinger That’s interesting. I wrote off Sea Lion as bunk a long time ago and focused on Barbarossa. Perhaps I was just doing it wrong. Won’t everyone be surprised when I try it again 🤣. We almost never see it in my group, just different variations of Barbarossa.

[weddingsinger]

@M36 said in We need an allied playbook.:

@weddingsinger That’s interesting. I wrote off Sea Lion as bunk a long time ago and focused on Barbarossa. Perhaps I was just doing it wrong. Won’t everyone be surprised when I try it again 🤣. We almost never see it in my group, just different variations of Barbarossa.

Yeah, take a look. My version doesn’t commit you to Sea Lion on G1 so you can wait and see UK’s action. If they do anything like buy ships for S. Africa, etc (Aldo’s navy stack off Gibraltor also looks legit as a block) then go ahead and punish them for their hubris and cackle maniacally as you do it.

/in an in person game 3 weeks ago my buddy took London from me on G3 WAAAYYYY too easily but only bought slow movers (Inf/art) for Germany so Allies still won because Japan was… ineffective would be a polite way to put it

[weddingsinger]

@M36 said in We need an allied playbook.:

@AldoRaine How about a destroyer block in 112 as well? Edit: Provided the Germans have stacked in the baltic like you said.

Italian fighters and/or bomber can easily sink a destroyer on its turn, opening it back up.

German player can (should?) also place their cruiser in sz 112 that will have 3 fighters available to scramble to prevent UK from putting a ship there at all.