AAA Should Be Permitted to Attack

Perhaps a useful angle from which to look at this issue is to put it in the following way: towed artillery and self-propelled artillery are both mobile units, but they differ considerably in terms of their mobility, especially when one starts getting into the larger calibers.  And a useful illustration of this fact is the situation that existed on the Western Front during WWI.  For much of the war, the opposing lines remained largely static, even though men died by the millions trying to break through the enemy lines.  Effecting a breakthrough was very costly in terms of lives, but it did get done many times; the real reason the war went nowhere in terms of gained ground actually had to do with what happened after the attacking troops initially broke through the enemy’s first-line trenches.  Initial breakthroughs were effected in part by artillery preparation.  Both sides mismanaged the tactics for doing this during the first years of the war, but got better at it later (when they realized that a short but violent bombardment was more effective than a bombardment that went on for days and days).  After the initial breakthough, however, the advancing troops would “outrun” their artillery support and would come up against the enemy’s secondary trench lines.  And that’s where the difference between towed artillery (which all WWI artillery was) and self-propelled artillery (which didn’t exist at the time) comes into play.  The massive numbers of artillery pieces which had performed the barrage that had allowed the initial breakthough to occur took a long time to be taken down, hitched up, towed – especially over the muddy, heavily cratered terrain that their own bombatrdment had created – unhitched and set back up, giving the defenders ample time to reorganize their trench lines – or even to counter-attack and recover their lost ground.

The point here is that WWI mobile artillery, even though it was mobile, wasn’t mobile enough to allow the rapid exploitation of a breakthrough.  By contrast, self-propelled artillery – even of the heavy caliber type – doesn’t just have operational mobility (which all artillery has, all the way up to the 800mm Dora railway gun which took a couple of days to set up for firing), it also has tactical mobility (which ideally can even allow it to “shoot and scoot”, as a tactic against counter-battery fire).

Pretty much took care of that. Then just give the AAA gun only 1 preempted shot A1 from 1 territory away against the piece of attackers choice. Can only move AAA gun in non combat. Can only use 1 per territory. Also defends normal if attacked. So you can use both ways.

What this game need, is an air to air combat phase before the general combat, like the one in A&A 1914, where one part get air superiority. Then, the side with no aircrafts should be allowed to use their AA guns as protection against enemy aircraft, both in attack and defense. The current OOB rules are nuts, planes from both sides fly side by side but only engage ground units. That is not how it worked in the real war. Even without an preemptive dogfight phase, fighters should be targeting other aircrafts every round as long there are any, and then they can strafe ground units. But, AA guns defending dug in units were stronger than the light mobile AA guns that followed the charging Tanks. Maybe as other said, defending AA gun roll 3 dice, and attacking AA gun roll 1 die only. I dunno man

@Narvik:

What this game need, is an air to air combat phase before the general combat, like the one in A&A 1914, where one part get air superiority. Then, the side with no aircrafts should be allowed to use their AA guns as protection against enemy aircraft, both in attack and defense. The current OOB rules are nuts, planes from both sides fly side by side but only engage ground units. That is not how it worked in the real war. Even without an preemptive dogfight phase, fighters should be targeting other aircrafts every round as long there are any, and then they can strafe ground units. But, AA guns defending dug in units were stronger than the light mobile AA guns that followed the charging Tanks. Maybe as other said, defending AA gun roll 3 dice, and attacking AA gun roll 1 die only. I dunno man

Ya I agree but the air on air until there’s a winner will never fly in 40 OOB game.

Maybe if the rule was there when the game first came out.

You’ve changed my mind and my vote Ichabod.  :-o

Yeah, I never liked the idea of ‘fighters’ just basically being mult attack craft and there should be some kind of air vs air.

@SS:

@Narvik:

What this game need, is an air to air combat phase before the general combat, like the one in A&A 1914, where one part get air superiority. Then, the side with no aircrafts should be allowed to use their AA guns as protection against enemy aircraft, both in attack and defense. The current OOB rules are nuts, planes from both sides fly side by side but only engage ground units. That is not how it worked in the real war. Even without an preemptive dogfight phase, fighters should be targeting other aircrafts every round as long there are any, and then they can strafe ground units. But, AA guns defending dug in units were stronger than the light mobile AA guns that followed the charging Tanks. Maybe as other said, defending AA gun roll 3 dice, and attacking AA gun roll 1 die only. I dunno man

Ya I agree but the air on air until there’s a winner will never fly in 40 OOB game.
I agree.

Maybe if the rule was there when the game first came out.

@Caesar:

Yeah, I never liked the idea of ‘fighters’ just basically being mult attack craft and there should be some kind of air vs air.

I’m a big fan of Air vs Air combat when I play F-2-F, 1941 or 1942.2 or AA50.
Fighter can hit enemy’s plane each combat round.
AAA is cheaper and can defend each combat round.
But Fighter and TcB are also cheaper.

SS had tried it I think in his Global war.

What make you stop from using Fighter attacking fighter or bomber in regular combat?

Was it broken at some point?

High price of planes and higher attrition rate, maybe?

Yeah, I don’t know. People complain that tactical bombers are useless for their price but a house rule that can make them useful is fighters can only engage other aircraft. Making tactical bombers instantly useful.

I never thought about this one. Interesting.
Fighter main use was against planes. But Fgs were able to deal damage to Destroyer and other vessels.
But, again this would require a change in cost for Fighter, due to attrition rate.

It is workable IMO if you totally consider air as a true third medium in which there can be battle, same as land or naval by itself.
Subs have unlimited target on naval but cannot hit planes.
Planes get restricted against Subs.

AAA cannot hit land units.

We have used HBG 1936 AAA rules in global1940 as HR. Works great! We found defence only AAA was illogical. Most AAA were in reality towed by vehicle identical to conventional artillery. If it can move and defend why not also attack?

HR we use, inspired by 1936 rules, modified for 1940 global:

1. AAA unit can only fire on aircraft, both attack or defense. Maximum of 3 shots @ 1 d6, first round of combat only. One shot at each plane per AAA to a maximum of 3 planes shot per each AAA. Casualties caused selected by owner. AAA may be selected as casualties. A1/D1/M1/C oob.

2. All facilities have built in AAA. Used only to defend strategic bombing of that facility, not depicted as a unit.

3. AAA unit piece does not participate in defense of strategic bombing of facilities. Only used to defend unit pieces (inf. Etc.) Or attack with other units in a land zone only. Same as oob artillery, in all movement, including naval transportation. Only used in land zone AAA is located in.

@Baron:

I never thought about this one. Interesting.
Fighter main use was against planes. But Fgs were able to deal damage to Destroyer and other vessels.
But, again this would require a change in cost for Fighter, due to attrition rate.

It is workable IMO if you totally consider air as a true third medium in which there can be battle, same as land or naval by itself.
Subs have unlimited target on naval but cannot hit planes.
Planes get restricted against Subs.

AAA cannot hit land units.

Ya but if you have air to air combat , is it better for D12 than D6 D8 ? Last reply. If we discuss this further here it needs a new topic thread. Were going off topic.

Unless you can work some kind of contested board rule where air units engage over the boarder lines meaning the battle takes place technically on both sides between air units, this means that any other side that has AA guns can fire as well since obviously planes are flying around and not stationary. That could be a fun way to have “offensive AA”.

Just have AAA fire first then any planes left get to have combat only with other planes.

@Ichabod:

@Rank:

We have used HBG 1936 AAA rules in global1940 as HR. Works great! We found defence only AAA was illogical. Most AAA were in reality towed by vehicle identical to conventional artillery. If it can move and defend why not also attack?

HR we use, inspired by 1936 rules, modified for 1940 global:

1. AAA unit can only fire on aircraft, both attack or defense. Maximum of 3 shots @ 1 d6, first round of combat only. One shot at each plane per AAA to a maximum of 3 planes shot per each AAA. Casualties caused selected by owner. AAA may be selected as casualties. A1/D1/M1/C oob.

2. All facilities have built in AAA. Used only to defend strategic bombing of that facility, not depicted as a unit.

3. AAA unit piece does not participate in defense of strategic bombing of facilities. Only used to defend unit pieces (inf. Etc.) Or attack with other units in a land zone only. Same as oob artillery, in all movement, including naval transportation. Only used in land zone AAA is located in.

Yes.

Also, I’m curious, were you or are you in the military?

Ich, after you reposted this by Rank I really like this HR rule. Just thinking that if you get to use AAA on  A and D, then maybe you should still have to buy AAA gun for SBR’s only and not have the built in AAA gun in Factory’s. I would use a different color AAA gun for SBR’s only. I know with the built in gun in facilities makes it easier in game for ID ing pieces.

One reason to change is about how AAA moving in NCM only can slowdown things for transport and the need to note for himself to not forget to move this unit.

Make working AAA as other units simplify things.

Yeah, I only buy AA guns as USSR if Germany is making it clear their air power is going to be opening up territories. Fortunately, I have yet to be on the losing side of Dark Skies.

@Caesar:

Yeah, I only buy AA guns as USSR if Germany is making it clear their air power is going to be opening up territories. Fortunately, I have yet to be on the losing side of Dark Skies.

Yes and maybe a Normandy landing or Berlin W Germany push.