Dogfighting in 1914 version of G40 & SBR escort and interception

Ok, this thread is a sub-thread of Adapting A&A1914 rules for G40:
It is specifically made to understand the role of each plane Inside Air-to-Air phase (dogfight).
ANd how it can change the actual SBR escort and interception rule of G40.
@Baron:

Air-to-Air phase (Dogfight):
All planes (Fg,TcB, StB) inside A-to-A phase roll A/D @1. Remove casualties.
Defending fighters then roll a second cycle inside the phase. Remove casualties.
Then, all attacking Fgs can roll for a second cycle. Remove casualties.
Proceed to SBR over IC, NB or AB.
AAA fires against StB and TcB
Then roll damage as OOB.

For my part, this is a complete breakthrough to get a HR for SBR and intercept in G40.

It will have a better historical feel than the actual OOB all @1.
Fighters get a special treatment on the second cycle.
A second chance to make a hit.
I gave preemptive to defender because everyone agree that defending planes have a little superiority over attacking ones.
The first cycle is a regular because, even defending planes have to scramble and can be caught off guard. They get the superiority once in the air.

Do you think it could make the job?

Add an interesting value for Fighters intercepting and defending?
Does this affect too drastically the SBR of IC, AB, NB?

If forgot to mention: as OOB, TcB and StB didn’t get a defense roll in an SBR, they aren’t part of it.
Only defending Fgs can intercept Bombers and escorts.
The first cycle of SBR interception phase is as OOB.
Only the second cycle is different.
Intercepting Fgs roll @1 preemptive while escorting Fgs roll @1 regular.

Hi everybody,
I just changed the subject title of the thread to make things clearer.
This one is now a sub-thread of the Adapting A&A1914 rules for G40 thread.

Now we can talk about all the specific details Razor have in mind.

Yes, you must do dogfight and be exposed to AA fire before every time you use your aircrafts in combat.

This was OOB in any SBR of G40 (after escort and interceptor rolls, they are not submitted to AAA from IC, NB, AB), that’s why I understood you wish to talk about the 1914 version of G40.
Same thing here:

If all planes can roll a 1 in dogfight, it would be like the old Tranny that defended on a D1.

More clear here because in OOB G40 SBR all planes roll @1 vs each others.

2. The defender commit intercepting fighters, both from the territory being attacked and by scrambling from adjacent AirBases

This is forbidden in the OOB G40, that’s why I was sure that you intented to have a specific discussion about dogfight and SBR from 1914 backround rules POV.

Please just Watch when you reply to SS or Razor thread that the subject is:
Re: Dogfighting in 1914 version of G40 & SBR escort and interception

I like discussion but we need this distinction because the background rules of Razor and Ossel work in progress is very different from OOB G40.
Thanks to put your follow-up ideas on SBR and dogfighting phase about 1914 background rules to develop a different G40 here.

@SS:

Ok then I’m off topic.

That’s funny, I thought your were talking about 1914G40 Razor work in progress… So being on the topics not off…

Your comments proved to me that this distinction was necessary.

@Razor:

I think only fighters can roll dice in the Dogfight phase, both because of playability and historical issues. If all planes can roll a 1 in dogfight, it would be like the old Tranny that defended on a D1. So you buy nothing but Trannies, and they roll a D1 like ten times, and sink the attacking Battleship. You can do the same in dogfight, buy nothing but Bombers, and they roll a A1 like twenty times and kill all intercepting fighters. This is gamey, and not historical correct either. Real life transport ships never sank a battleship, even if they had a small gun on deck, and real life heavy Bombers was slaughtered when on a mission alone, even if they had a machine gun in front and rear. That’s why it was so important to develop long range escort fighters. If the B 17 bomber had been strong in dogfights, the P51 Mustang would never have been made. Same with real life ships, they all had some ASW ability, but for game purposes only the A&A Destroyer can negate submarine first shot and submerging in this game. If all units had the same abilities it would not be fun.

Based on this, let only fighters be allowed to roll dice in the Dogfight, and make it preemptive It is also important that the AA gun fire is resolved after the Dogfight. Interceptors meet the enemy at the border far away, and AA guns is close defence, when you actually see the white in the enemy eyes

You can develop the 1914 Dogfight on this principles.
But I think, that at least Tactical Bomber should have a combat value during Air-to-air combat.
Historically they were weaker yes. But not defenseless. (In OOB scramble, you can use up to 3 TcBs against incoming planes and ships in a SZ.)
That’s why I put A1D1.
Maybe, A1 or D1 only if paired to a Fg.

And if StB get A0D0 then it should be cheaper, because it can be easily destroy without any escort.
And since we don’t have any longe range fighter M6, then it need to be cheaper.

On a gameplay perspective, however I think this will be less interesting.
You have 3 combat units, and there is no air transport here.
You will see the StB 10-12 IPCs playing sitting suck during Dogfight: plain boring.
You can make this progression at least:
Fg A1D2 (as you like)
TcB A1D1
StB A0D0, but on offence get A1 if paired 1:1 to 1 Fg.

However, I still think that the all planes A1/D1 during dogfight.
And give another kind of roll or more to fighter is simpler and funny.

@Razor:

@Baron:

On a gameplay perspective, however I think this will be less interesting.
You will see the StB 10-12 IPCs playing sitting suck during Dogfight: plain boring.

I don’t agree

You have a Tranny that roll A0D0, and nobody say that is boring. But back in the days with Classic and Revised, where Trannies defended on D1, and nobody would buy warships, just a huge stack of Trannies and a huge stack of Infantry, now that was boring. Luckily that is fixed. Now if you don’t want your Tranny to be sunk, you buy warships for escort. Same thing in dogfight, if you don’t want your St.Bomber to get killed, you buy fighter escorts. Exactly what is boring about that _

I agree that having a lot of TTs A0D1 with only a few warships wasn’t historical and an annoyance.
But the StB situation is not the same with planes as what you depicted for naval units.

TT A0D1C8 was the optimal buy to protect a fleet in classic times.
While StB costing 12 IPCs is not an optimal buying to increase the number of your fleet units: too expensive.
Fighter is the optimal: and at A1D2C6-7-8 it is a lot cheaper and you can afford to loose them.

I just say that if you compared the 3 planes during a dogfight phase on the same IPC basis, you will see how better is a fighter, I put at 6 IPCs for a simpler example:
1 Fg A1D2C6 = 10 A10D20C60
1 TcB A1D1C10 = 6 A6D6C60
1 StB A1D0C12 = 5 A5D0C60

You can now better see how weak is a StB even receiving @1 on attack vs any defending Fg D2.
The ratio is 30 pts vs 5 pts or 6:1 in favor of the fighters.

In the most frequent situation, you get 4:1, 2 FgD2= 4 pts vs 1 StBA1 for the same 12 IPCs.
This cost system will already consider what you want to keep about historical inferiority of StBs vs intercepting planes.

No one will be dumb to the point of throwing costly StB without a kind of escort.
If there is no chance of a Lucky strike for StBs, instead of increasing Air-to-Air combat, a smart player will simply throw them elsewhere (it is the chilling effect of Fgs in any SBR with escort and intercept rules).
So instead of increasing the number of Air-to-air combat, you risk to lower them.

@Razor:

I think only fighters can roll dice in the Dogfight phase, both because of playability and historical issues. If all planes can roll a 1 in dogfight, it would be like the old Tranny that defended on a D1. So you buy nothing but Trannies, and they roll a D1 like ten times, and sink the attacking Battleship. You can do the same in dogfight, buy nothing but Bombers, and they roll a A1 like twenty times and kill all intercepting fighters. This is gamey, and not historical correct either. Real life transport ships never sank a battleship, even if they had a small gun on deck, and real life heavy Bombers was slaughtered when on a mission alone, even if they had a machine gun in front and rear. That’s why it was so important to develop long range escort fighters. If the B 17 bomber had been strong in dogfights, the P51 Mustang would never have been made. Same with real life ships, they all had some ASW ability, but for game purposes only the A&A Destroyer can negate submarine first shot and submerging in this game. If all units had the same abilities it would not be fun.

There is a way to treat StBs in dogfight capacity so even a swarm of StBs will not destroy all the defending Fighters.

Example #1: 6 StBs A1 attacking a single Fg D2.
Normally, StBs will get 6 rolls @1 while the Fg get 1 @2.

You can considered the StBs attack like a 1 shot AAA without preemptive strike, instead of 3.
So, no matter the number of incoming StBs, this Fg unit will just suffer a single roll @1.
StB A1-1-1-D1M6C12, in dogfight, get 1 Attack roll @1 up to the number of StBs or Fgs, whichever is less.

Example #2, 2 StBs attacks 3 Fgs, then all StBs can have 2 rolls @1 to destroy up to two fighters out of the three.
Example #3, 4 StBs attacks 2 Fgs, then all StBs can have 2 rolls @1 to destroy up to two fighters, even if there is 4 StBs.

I rationalize it that way:
StBs are a kind of machine guns Platform (a kind of AA) against Fgs that are flying around them and much nearer than ground AA.
Even if there is more enemy fighters around them (the machine guns doesn’t double magically).
So it is like an Air-to-Air AA situation instead of a ground to air AA situation.

In addition, StBs are not actively chasing Fgs.
Each fighter unit can not go after all incoming StBs during a raid, it is a 1:1 situation, otherwise Fgs should be treat as AAA able to attack more than 1 unit, for instance up to three (if like an AAA).
That’s why each intercepting Fg against StBs get 1 single chance to be shot down at 1/6 odds max.

Another way to get a distinctive taste between Fg and TcB on offence is to give attacking Fg a preemptive strike @1, like it is in 1942.2 SBR.

Fg A1 preemptive / D2 regular
TcB A1 / D1
StB A1 /D0, but A1 is like a  1 AAA @1 vs up to 1 plane without preemptive, up to 1 StB or plane whichever is less.

So you kept a progressive scale from D0, to D2.
And every unit get a chance in dogfight phase, no bystander, except for StB on defense.