Submarine surprise attack

A unit that takes a hit from a Surprise Strike is removed immediately and does not return fire.  The only exceptions are a battleship which is taking its first hit (as it not destroyed) and a sub which also gets a Surprise Strike (as it is firing at the same time).

Now then does the submarine, having previously fired in its surprise attack, be permitted to fire again in the first round of shooting? Or does it’s surprise attack count as its first volley of fire, with the only benefit being the no defensive fire of any surprise attack hits.

Also, at what point can a sub decide to submerge and break from combat?

The Surprise attack is its one and only attack. It does not get a second attack.
Correct is saying anything taken as a casualty cannot fire back(unless it is a Battleship and is still afloat, only damaged).

A Sub can submerge and leave the combat(stays in the same SZ)'any time there is not an enemy Destroyer present in the battle and instead of attacking.

Or defending
.
The example being a Cruiser moves into the SZ with the Sub during Combat Phase and it submerges, rather than Shoot first with a poor roll of one.

@wittmann:

The Surprise attack is its one and only attack. It does not get a second attack.

To be clear, the sub does get its surprise strike in each round of combat, not just the first one.

So the issue we are having is a player continues to use a submarine to surprise attack naval ships (with no destroyer present). Gets the undefended kill and then submerges, not allowing other present ships to defend fire. So this is not allowed? As the submerging must be done either prior to being shot at or shooting. Do I follow correctly?

You are(your friend is)  playing it  wrong.
Any surviving ships in the SZ after the Sub had had its sneak get to defend.
The Sub can only Submerge INSTEAD of doing a sneak attack. Not as well as.
You are understanding submerging  correctly now.

Very good. Thanks for the help. It does get frustrating and in the interest of fun, numerous disagreements have been conceded to the most argumentative. I’m sure every gamer can relate.

Well, the sub can surprise attack, then take defense fire from surviving ships, and then submerge at the end of the round.

I follow. Thanks

@NaptownMVP:

Well, the sub can surprise attack, then take defense fire from surviving ships, and then submerge at the end of the round.

Actually, it would submerge at the beginning of the next round (rather than firing).  This distinction is important if there are other attacking units that may wish to retreat.  In such case, either the sub would need to retreat along with them at the end of the round, or all of the units must remain to fight another round to allow the sub to remain and submerge.

True. I was thinking after the end of the round when I typed that!

So in all combat, either all units retreat or none can retreat?

That’s generally true.  There are only two exceptions.  The first is submarines that have submerged; they are already out of the battle, so they remain in the sea zone.  The second is land units performing an amphibious assault; they can never retreat, so they are left behind to continue fighting if all of the other attacking units (air units and/or land units attacking by land) retreat.

@Krieghund:

@wittmann:

The Surprise attack is its one and only attack. It does not get a second attack.

To be clear, the sub does get its surprise strike in each round of combat, not just the first one.

But why is it still surprising in a second or third round of combat? I dont get it.
If the sub submerges instead of firing in a later combat round can it still be taken as casualty if the enemy rolls a hit in the same Round it submerges?

Ah the submarine… the biggest PITA unit in the game to play correctly especially for new players.

My advice: in which ever edition you play, use you battle board/strips and follow the naval combat sequence very carefully and to the letter. Until you and your group has it perfect.

@Chacmool:

@Krieghund:

@wittmann:

The Surprise attack is its one and only attack. It does not get a second attack.

To be clear, the sub does get its surprise strike in each round of combat, not just the first one.

But why is it still surprising in a second or third round of combat? I dont get it.
If the sub submerges instead of firing in a later combat round can it still be taken as casualty if the enemy rolls a hit in the same Round it submerges?

On the second question:
No. A submerged Sub can no more be taken as casualty, since it submerged (in step 2) before the third step of General Combat Sequence. It will resurface at the end of the combat phase.

Submersible:
A submarine has the option of submerging. It can do this anytime it would otherwise make a Surprise Strike.
The decision is made before any dice are rolled by either side (the attacker decides first) and takes effect immediately.
When a submarine submerges, it’s immediately removed from the battle strip and placed back on the map.

About your first question:
Here how I rationalize a Combat Round:
It can be a whole engagement during a single day. Then a second combat round can represent another wave of attacks, occuring hours, or days later against the survivors.
Hence, the defending units cannot predict where and when will the next Subs groups attacks.
At the abstract level of play in this game, I didn’t view 1 sculpt against 1 sculpt at the lowest tactical level where 1 submarine vessel is assaulting 1 surface warship.
The indivual level of combat representation can provides some guidelines for giving a “feeling” of each combat unit value, capacity and rules but cannot and shouldn’t be a plain simulation of it. A single sculpt can be used as a figure for many “real” units.

When a player’s turn is over, it could represent roughly from 3 to 6 months of “historical” war time.

@krieghund said in Submarine surprise attack:

A unit that takes a hit from a Surprise Strike is removed immediately and does not return fire.  The only exceptions are a battleship which is taking its first hit (as it not destroyed) and a sub which also gets a Surprise Strike (as it is firing at the same time).

And an Aircraft Carrier, too.

@mikemikemike said in Submarine surprise attack:

@krieghund said in Submarine surprise attack:

A unit that takes a hit from a Surprise Strike is removed immediately and does not return fire.  The only exceptions are a battleship which is taking its first hit (as it not destroyed) and a sub which also gets a Surprise Strike (as it is firing at the same time).

And an Aircraft Carrier, too.

Carriers do not have two hits in this game.