Exploring cheaper & weaker AAA guns unit to incite purchase

I got these ideas on another thread but I don’t want to derail it out of proportion.

@Amon-Sul:

I have to make a comment about the value of units. From what i have played now i think that some units are too expensive, not too much but enough that they are so rarely bought that it does not help making a very fun and diversed game as it could be.

AA gun 4 IPC / 5 IPC with extra abilities

AA gun is rarely bought. It could either cost 4 IPC or 5 but then it should attack at 4 air units not 3.

What do U think guys, any suggestions, ideas?

So feel free to add your two cents (all general impressions, viability & balance and any HR mods are welcome.)

@Baron:

On AAA units, don’t know if it is a general observation and if all players agreed that there is very few AAA buying.

Maybe this unit is statistically balance in itself (power against planes/cost) but in the overall strategy it gets in competition with Inf A1D2C3 and Art A2D2C4 and for 1 more IPC, you get a unit blitzing up to 2 spaces: Tank A3D3C6.

Maybe the power of a AAA unit should be reduce and his cost also, to be more attractive.
I’m thinking something like an AAA unit working as OOB but against only 2 planes but at a 3 IPCs cost.
So when you get 2 AAA for 6 IPCs you get 2 hits and can defend against up to 4 planes.
AAA A0D0M1C3 1 hit, get 1 preemptive strike @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever is less.

---

Against planes it is just a little bit better:
2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
3 modified AAAs A0D0C9, 3 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.

Here I have a more drastic way to get a larger number of AAA unit but at a lower cost, being this way much more interesting to buy.
It will be less effective than the regular OOB but I’d like a comment of your part.

AAA A0D0M1C2 1 hit, can make up to 1@1 preemptive shot per plane at the beginning of a combat.

On balance:

Against planes, it is just a little weaker but it has much more hits:
2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
5 cheap AAAs A0D0C10, 5 hits, can target up to 5 planes on the first round.

And vs my previous version:
2 modified AAAs A0D0C6, 2 hits, can target up to 4 planes on the first round.
3 cheap AAAs A0D0C6, 3 hits, can target up to 3 planes on the first round.

It is a 2 IPCs units, it is clearly affordable but much weaker than OOB AAA.
But is it too affordable?
Don’t forget that this unit at A0D0 have only a casualty value nothing else.

It can go down to a 4 IPCs unit and attack only up to 2 planes, but it still seems too weak and expensive.
It doesn’t have the appeal of a Mech Inf nor an Art.
That’s why I first lower the cost to 3 IPCs.
Maybe any 2 IPCs unit (even at A0D0) creates a too much bigger defensive change in the game dynamics.

Finally, on simplicity:

By going 1 unit : up to 1 plane maximum, the ratio is simple and it becomes like all other A&A units which can only fire at 1 unit per roll.

AAA as a regular unit?:

If the 3 IPCs = 1 hit is the bottom line of the A&A system.
It is also possible to see AAA guns much like a regular unit, this way:

AAA A0D0M1C3, 1 hit, can attack up to 1 plane (1 plane can never be target by more than 1 AAA/ round), no preemptive but regular, and every round.
If you find a 3 IPCs too low,
can it be appealing and balance at 4 IPCs?

@knp7765:

Then I realized they can only shoot at 1 plane. So if you had 2 AA guns in a territory being attacked by 4 planes, only 2 of those planes are even risking AA fire. So, maybe the price equals the ability.

Now, this is ONLY for the AA gun piece that defends the military units in any given territory, right? The “built in” AA defense for facilities would still roll 1 die for each attacking plane, right?

Yes. It doesn’t change anything about in-built AA. Why would I change something which clearly works?

AAA A0D0M1C2 1 hit, can make up to 1@1 preemptive shot per plane at the beginning of a combat.

One of the deterrent aspect of AAA unit is actually that it do nothing after the initial combat round. And during a battle, even when the defender is going to win, there is the temptation to dump it as a casualty because it have no defense value.

In addition, if the attacker bring no plane in the battle, it seems to be unuseful.

Maybe a less risky vs offence & defence balance of A&A than the 2 IPCs is a 3 IPCs AAA. It will still be very affordable (like any Inf unit).

Is this unit be too powerful, or does it get just the little “humph” making it a way more interesting?

AAA A0D1M1C3 1 hit, in addition of the regular defense roll @1 in the first round, it gets 1 defensive preemptive strike @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever is less.

Comparative values:

3 OOB AAAs A0D0M1C15, 3 hits, can target up to 9 planes on the first round.
5 modified AAAs A0D5M1C15, 5 hits, can target up to 10 planes on the first round.
5 Infantries OOB A5-10D10M1C15, 5 hits, can be paired to Art.

On the same 15 IPCs value vs OOB AAA: it gives +D5, + 2 hits, “target up to” +1 plane.
But still be minus A5 to A10 and minus D5 against OOB Inf. But “target up to” +10 planes on defense and @1 preemptive.

We can also say that this unit can unload from transport during NCM, even if the transport unload during Combat Move.
Or
Allow this AAA unit to make a Combat Move, so any attacker can bring them in battle to get extra hits with nothing else.

This last one version of AAA is my favourite (it answers the uninteresting aspects of the OOB), but is it just too much powerful as designed?

On the other thread I saw that some players were ready to boost OOB AAA by making them 3 IPCs, 4 IPCs or roll against up to 4 planes, or even both.
@ErwinRommel:

If you want to see more AA guns on the map you can houserule them to cost 4IPC.

@Cow:

I think 5 dollas should give me 4 shots!

@oztea:

[…]
I’d also lower their cost to like….4, or even 3.
ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble

@Sire:

AA Gun IMO, the price should be 4 or 5 but can fire at four aircrafts.

If it is too much OP, does this same AAA at 3 IPCs with only
1 defensive preemptive strike @1 against up to 1 plane.
can still be viable instead?
Or is it becoming too weak (because we splited in half his main ability)?

Do you have different ideas to promote AAA?

The more I think about it, and the more I see that AAA unit need a real change to create a real new dynamics and much more interest in it. I would introduce my analysis by this general comments which talk by itself:
@allweneedislove:

Like ryguy, I also would like to know why AA guns were changed but still suck.
AA guns were a boring unit that no one purchased. 2nd edition did a good job changing them to behave like a regular unit that can have more than one in the same territory and be taken as casualties. However, they are still boring and a bad purchase.
AA guns are broken and should have been fixed with the 2nd edition revision. They are overpriced.

First, I have the impression that the introduction of this new AAArtillery unit is too much influence by his older brother the AntiAircraft guns from previous version.
These units were able to pre-emptively defend IC and territory against all planes for a 5 or 6 IPCs. They were indestructible and can be captured.

The new AAA unit worth 1 hit but is far less effective against many planes than his older one, but both are strictly made as defensive unit.

And that is one feature that have an impact on the value and usefulness of AAA unit.

On offence, the attacker have the initiative and always choose where and how he will launch an assault.

About the where, that’s explain how useful a plane or a Tank is. They can move farther, threatening more territories than any M1 unit in a given tour. In Europe, it gives sometimes 3 or 4 territories under the threat of the same army group. The defender can’t be everywhere and often have to left some barren territories to built up a real defence on fewer ones.

About the how, the attacker always have the tactical advantage of choosing which units and how many he will bring in a specific combat. This imply mainly here to put or not to put planes in harm’s way of a preemptive strike @1.

Keeping this two points in mind, I hope you begin to see what is the problem of a 5 IPCs AAA and why they usually see battle in much important territories like Capitals and Victory Cities. And why we prefer to buy 4 IPCs Art/MechInf or 6 IPCs Tank, instead.

Other units can be used on offense.
They have a defensive number: D2 or D3.
No matter what is thrown in a battle they always roll their defense.

On the other part, AAA can’t be use in offence. And when is put to reinforce a territory, it looses all its value if the attacker choose to use ground units instead of planes. All we can say, is that it can be a consolation knowing that sometimes, the fear of loosing valuable planes divert attacker’s planes toward minor objective and forcing him to throw precious tanks in the AAA’s defended territory.
@wittmann:

I think most people move them around. Makes sense. I think losing an air unit to AA is very demoralising to the attacker. Sometimes I avoid using Air units against territories with AA for precisely that reason!

But, even then, it means that the defending player will loose this precious AAA doing nothing of what it was made for.

This last point explains better why it is on Capital and vital territories that most of AAA are being used.
These territories gaining so much importance that the attacker is clearly ready to throw much of his planes to grab them and accept the sacrifice of loosing a few planes under the snake eyes “1”.

This being anticipated by defender, it explains why AAA unit mainly stay behind the front line, being kept in reserve for the all-in battles to come.

In other circumstances, throwing on the front lines 2 AAA units (10 IPCs) is a gamble: hoping that the attacker will target a specific territory, with, in addition, precious planes to feed the hungry AAA just waiting to be used in the preemptive round of fire (and odds are only 2 rolls @1!).

Now, compared to 1 MechInf and 1 Armor (10 IPCs), which can attack where you want and be able to defend against anything with a pretty good D2+D3. It seems to me that the choice is obvious.

All players have somehow these points in mind when buying units and I think it explains why AAA units are not popular.

Once this observation is said, I think it can be the time to exploits some dusty tactics which cannot be truly develop with the OOB units but can be if anyone is willing to change the AAA value to weaker and cheaper but more affordable.

The first tactics which come to my mind is about the ordered retreat.
This happen most on the German-Russian front. Sometimes, all what a player want is keep the border territory without involving too much loss, especially Tank and Artillery.
That’s where intervene planes to give an aggressive attack able to wipe all enemy’s units in a single round but letting only a few if only a single of his Infantry unit on the front line.

Playing with a 3 IPCs AAA gun can become an interesting part of this tactics. Instead of letting only a few Inf in the newly conquered territory, such AAA unit can be much willingly sacrifice in hope of inflicting a substantial damage on a plane during the counter-attack.

This unit should not cost higher than a regular Inf to be an acceptable loss.
Because it can directly target plane, this unit should keep a lot of limitation vs Inf unit.
This cheap AAA unit shouldn’t have any attacking capacity.
Should only be able to move during NCM essentially.
And only half the defending capacity of reg Inf.
But still gets a consolation roll on defence when there is no attacking planes.

Vs the actual OOB AAA
we can also think about letting go the preemptive fire.

Here is what I would try to input to find how it have an impact over planes tactics and buying:

AAA A0D1M1C3, 1 hit, can move during CM but not into any enemy’s territory, on the first round, if any attacking plane, _**instead of regular D1, gets a defensive non-preemptive AA@1 targeting up to 2 planes whichever is less, and keeping a regular D1 after first round.
This unit can also be left alone to defend a territory (contrary to the actual OOB).
It can be seen as a kind of Garrison unit: cannot attack, can only move in already conquered territory but can be left behind against invaders to make a casuality.
And, with 1D1, it is half chance to hit than Inf. But if the attacker take the risk to use plane to invade the territory, then the defender can get the “jack pot” and sometimes be able to crash down an enemy’s plane.

Of course transport can only hold: up to 1 Inf and 1 AAA.
AAA can now be put on a transport during Combat Move, to increase tactics and speed.
I would allow this special transport off-load of AAA unit during NCM:
Can unload from a non-moving transport during NCM, even if the transport unload during Combat Move in the same SZ.

Let me know if you think this modified AAA can make it more popular.
Do you think it can totally out balance the ratio ground vs planes unit?
Is it viable and can it really open new tactics and even defensive strategy?

I left behind the preemptive strike because it can be easily outweight by the fact that before we got 3 hits for 15 IPCs and now it is 5 hits for 15 IPCs.
This increase in hit absorbtion, I think is balanced by the regular AA defense instead of preemptive.
The few additionnals hit of planes can be taken by these additionnals AAA units on the board.

In addition, it will decrease the psychological weight of throwing some planes on AAA unit that could eventually makes no damage because they were destroyed preemptively.**_

Here, I just want to add some conversion rule of thumb for the starting set-up.
Since the equivalence is this one:
3 OOB AAAs A0D0M1C15, 3 hits, can target up to 9 planes on the first round.
5 modified AAAs A0D5M1C15, 5 hits, can target up to 10 planes on the first round.
It implies that any territory with 3 AAAs gets 2 additionals modified AAA.
With 2 OOB AAAs it gets only 1 modified AAA.

When there is 4 OOB AAAs in a given Territory, you can adds 2 modified AAAs and if there is somewhere else 1 isolated OOB AAA you can put there another modified AAA.

When there is 2 OOB AAAs, then you can add 1 modified AAA.

Finally, for all the single OOB AAA, if the sums is 2 then add one mod. AAA,  and if the sum makes 3 then adds 2 mod. AAAs.

Of course, all additionals AAA must be put in the same territories where there is already some AAA.

Additionnals AAAs coming from the sum of single AAA should be distributed as equally as possible.

Thanks sharing your experience in play-testing.

Did you use the AAA at 5 IPCs or were they at 3 IPCs as I suggested?

@Yavid:

I would like to say AA guns are horrible. I tried a game of Pacific '40 vs. myself. Using India crush and UK bought AA guns bringing there total up to 12. placing 4 in china, 4 in Burma and 4 in India. I also changed the rules of AA guns so they fired up to 3 dice per round of combat and as preemptive shots. And it failed miserably. 2 planes were shot down total and it only spend up Japan taking India.

Maybe you just suffer bad luck dices?

In essence, you telling us that even boosted AAA are weak.
So, even if we make them 3 IPCs, they should not be made too weak.

What do you think if the AAA A0D1M1C3, still keep up to 2 preemptive strike @1 vs planes ?

Is it still too weak?

@Baron:

@Yavid:

I would like to say AA guns are horrible. I tried a game of Pacific '40 vs. myself. Using India crush and UK bought AA guns bringing there total up to 12. placing 4 in china, 4 in Burma and 4 in India. I also changed the rules of AA guns so they fired up to 3 dice per round of combat and as preemptive shots. And it failed miserably. 2 planes were shot down total and it only spend up Japan taking India.

What do you think if the AAA A0D1M1C3, still keep up to 2 preemptive strike @1 vs planes ?

Is it still too weak?

Based on the principles and calc put on this post by Fortress:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28725.msg1027160#msg1027160
I could at least try to show that these stats for a revised AAA guns are balance.

AA gun firing 2 times at 2 fighters:

1/6 hit * 5/6 miss = 5/36 or 13.89%
5/6 miss * 1/6 hit = 5/36 or 13.89%
-Those are the two ways to get exactly 1 hit =10/36 or 27.78% hit exactly once * 10 IPC fighter = 2.78 IPC damage caused

1/6 hit * 1/6 hit = 1/36 or 2.78%
-That is the only way to get exactly 2 hits = 2.78% hit exactly two times * 20 IPC for 2 fighters = 0.56 IPC damaged caused

2.78+0.56=3.34 IPCs

A 3 IPCs mod. AAA gun causes at least 3.34 IPC average damage when there is at least 2 attacking planes, here is considered two Fighters.

But this is not always the case that there is attacking planes, as I showed in my earlier post.

On the other part, AAA can’t be use in offence. And when is put to reinforce a territory, it looses all its value if the attacker choose to use ground units instead of planes. All we can say, is that it can be a consolation knowing that sometimes, the fear of loosing valuable planes diverts attacker’s planes toward minor objective and forcing him to throw precious tanks in the AAA’s defended territory.
But, even then, it means that the defending player will loose this precious AAA doing nothing of what it was made for.

So, when there is none, on a single round of regular fire then it could simply be 1/6 or 16.67% as I suggested keeping AAA a D1 unit.
And usually it can hit Inf unit at 3 IPCs.
1/6 x 3 = .5 IPC per active round of fire.
That’s the statistical damage that can be done for each surviving round after the first round also.

So, if such AAA unit survives two rounds (my estimation of the average number of surviving rounds for a low defence and cost unit with a special ability), it will be at most 3.34 (1st rnd)+.5 (2nd rnd)= 3.84 IPCs of damage to the enemy when there is two attacking planes.

But if there is only 1 attacking plane, the damage probability for 2 rounds will be: 1.67 IPC (1st rnd)+ .5 IPC (2nd rnd) = 2.17 IPC damage caused.

The average (if it is really the average situation) will be (3.84+2.17)/2= 3.01 IPCs Damage caused.

And there is many situations when there is no attacking plane at all, let’s still suppose 2 rounds of defence: .5 IPC * 2 = 1 IPC damage cause.

And adding this third situation to the last average, making it the average of all the averages:
(3.84+2.17+1)/3= 2.34 IPCs Damage caused for 1 modified AAA unit.

In this perspective, I think that keeping up to 2 preemptive defensive strikes @1 against planes is not too OverPowering even for a 3 IPCs AAA unit.

Edit NOTE: Of course, these averages don’t include in Calc TcB at 11 IPCs nor StB at 12 IPCs.
Which means they could be slightly above the sums above, but not that much considering that air fleet is mainly compose of Fighters.

I’ve just found this comment about the statistics of AA guns vs cost and capacities:
It’s interesting to consider this different point of view from Mr Roboto:

@MrRoboto:

My 2 cents as well.

AAA: I’ve heard many people suggesting to reduce the cost to 4. Actually an AAA gun is better than infantry already if it can potentially fire at 3 planes.

For calculation purposes:

6 AAA (30 IPC): 18 hits on planes. Averages 3 hits.
10 Inf (30 IPC):  3 1/3 hits.

While the infantry does a little more damage, this damage probably only goes to enemy infantry. Additionally, planes hit by AAA can’t even fire back once.
Now the infantry of course has 4 hp more and can fire in the second round as well, but if the opponents attacks with such a large force that requires 6 AAA, these 10 inf will probably die in the first round anyway. This means you should always defend with as much AAA as necessary.

Now if AAA is so good at defending, why aren’t they never bought? Simply because most powers start with enough already. The capitals start with 3-6 already, this means they can defend against 9-18 planes!!! Just replace some starting AAA with infantry and you will see people will start buying AAA. Of course some powers just don’t need them (USA, Japan for example).
If you allow AAA to shoot at 4 planes, they will be bought even less, since you need even fewer!

If I use the same method:
For calculation purposes:

10 modified AAA (30 IPCs): 20 hits on planes. Averages 3 1/3 hits.
10 Inf @2 on defense (30 IPCs): 20 hits. Averages 3 1/3 hits.

However, we have to consider that modified AAA has D1, at least for another rounds:
So, it means +10 hit = 1 2/3 hits in addition to the previous 3 1/3.
Which means 5 hits.

It seems superior to infantry but we must add the offensive capacity (and it excludes the artillery pairing): 10 Inf: 10 hits = 1 2/3 in addition to the previous 3 1/3.
The sums make also 5 hits.

But, the comparison of Inf A1D2 is for 1 single round of OFF and DEF vs 2 rounds of DEF for AAA.

I think that by this method of calculation, we also see that the modified AAA is not Overpowered vs Infantry unit.

As an historical notes, I just learned (as I was listening a doc about war heroes) that US  Bofors AAA guns were converted in direct heavy machine guns against Germans Infantries during Normandy campaign. And Allies were on the offensive!

So it is still sound to have an AAA gun unit able to defend @1 vs regular units when there is no plane attacking.

@SS:

AA guns =
@1 at each plane. Remove casualty. No defend.
@1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
D1 on being attacked.
Cost 5

Preemptive strike for the first round only? Then a regular D1 after?

This AA guns can hit a plane each round?

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

@SS:

@Baron:

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.

AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.

AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.

I still think that at 5 IPCs, you can keep the up to three @1 against 3 planes, which ever is less.

And even with a counter-intuitive unit able to attack and defend as a reg unit:
AAA A1D1M1C5, 1 hit, and fire vs up to 3 planes as OOB.

I can say that it doesn’t change the tactical interest in them.

They may be more balance but the cost is clearly a cold shower.

Probably your AAA suggested should be cheaper.

@SS:

@Baron:

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.

AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.

AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.

Ok now I see what you wrote.
It is like the classic AA gun, all planes are targeted @1
or
1 @1 against all ground troops.

So, in essence, if you have 2 AAA units, 1 will target all planes and the other will target all ground units.

10 IPCs for 2 AAA units and you get, in addition, 1 preemptive strike @1 against all attacking units.