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My map isn’t heavily distorted to fit too many kind of units. I am favour to add new units if only absolutely needed. But Italy and China have units with similar Mech stats to diversify their options.
Exploring cheaper & weaker AAA guns unit to incite purchase
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Once this observation is said, I think it can be the time to exploits some dusty tactics which cannot be truly develop with the OOB units but can be if anyone is willing to change the AAA value to weaker and cheaper but more affordable.
The first tactics which come to my mind is about the ordered retreat.
This happen most on the German-Russian front. Sometimes, all what a player want is keep the border territory without involving too much loss, especially Tank and Artillery.
That’s where intervene planes to give an aggressive attack able to wipe all enemy’s units in a single round but letting only a few if only a single of his Infantry unit on the front line.Playing with a 3 IPCs AAA gun can become an interesting part of this tactics. Instead of letting only a few Inf in the newly conquered territory, such AAA unit can be much willingly sacrifice in hope of inflicting a substantial damage on a plane during the counter-attack.
This unit should not cost higher than a regular Inf to be an acceptable loss.
Because it can directly target plane, this unit should keep a lot of limitation vs Inf unit.
This cheap AAA unit shouldn’t have any attacking capacity.
Should only be able to move during NCM essentially.
And only half the defending capacity of reg Inf.
But still gets a consolation roll on defence when there is no attacking planes.Vs the actual OOB AAA
we can also think about letting go the preemptive fire.Here is what I would try to input to find how it have an impact over planes tactics and buying:
AAA A0D1M1C3, 1 hit, can move during CM but not into any enemy’s territory, on the first round, if any attacking plane, _**instead of regular D1, gets a defensive non-preemptive AA@1 targeting up to 2 planes whichever is less, and keeping a regular D1 after first round.
This unit can also be left alone to defend a territory (contrary to the actual OOB).
It can be seen as a kind of Garrison unit: cannot attack, can only move in already conquered territory but can be left behind against invaders to make a casuality.
And, with 1D1, it is half chance to hit than Inf. But if the attacker take the risk to use plane to invade the territory, then the defender can get the “jack pot” and sometimes be able to crash down an enemy’s plane.Of course transport can only hold: up to 1 Inf and 1 AAA.
AAA can now be put on a transport during Combat Move, to increase tactics and speed.
I would allow this special transport off-load of AAA unit during NCM:
Can unload from a non-moving transport during NCM, even if the transport unload during Combat Move in the same SZ.Let me know if you think this modified AAA can make it more popular.
Do you think it can totally out balance the ratio ground vs planes unit?
Is it viable and can it really open new tactics and even defensive strategy?
I left behind the preemptive strike because it can be easily outweight by the fact that before we got 3 hits for 15 IPCs and now it is 5 hits for 15 IPCs.
This increase in hit absorbtion, I think is balanced by the regular AA defense instead of preemptive.
The few additionnals hit of planes can be taken by these additionnals AAA units on the board.In addition, it will decrease the psychological weight of throwing some planes on AAA unit that could eventually makes no damage because they were destroyed preemptively.**_
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Here, I just want to add some conversion rule of thumb for the starting set-up.
Since the equivalence is this one:
3 OOB AAAs A0D0M1C15, 3 hits, can target up to 9 planes on the first round.
5 modified AAAs A0D5M1C15, 5 hits, can target up to 10 planes on the first round.
It implies that any territory with 3 AAAs gets 2 additionals modified AAA.
With 2 OOB AAAs it gets only 1 modified AAA.When there is 4 OOB AAAs in a given Territory, you can adds 2 modified AAAs and if there is somewhere else 1 isolated OOB AAA you can put there another modified AAA.
When there is 2 OOB AAAs, then you can add 1 modified AAA.
Finally, for all the single OOB AAA, if the sums is 2 then add one mod. AAA, Â and if the sum makes 3 then adds 2 mod. AAAs.
Of course, all additionals AAA must be put in the same territories where there is already some AAA.
Additionnals AAAs coming from the sum of single AAA should be distributed as equally as possible.
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I would like to say AA guns are horrible. I tried a game of Pacific '40 vs. myself. Using India crush and UK bought AA guns bringing there total up to 12. placing 4 in china, 4 in Burma and 4 in India. I also changed the rules of AA guns so they fired up to 3 dice per round of combat and as preemptive shots. And it failed miserably. 2 planes were shot down total and it only spend up Japan taking India.
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Thanks sharing your experience in play-testing.
Did you use the AAA at 5 IPCs or were they at 3 IPCs as I suggested?
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they were 5 ipcs
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I would like to say AA guns are horrible. I tried a game of Pacific '40 vs. myself. Using India crush and UK bought AA guns bringing there total up to 12. placing 4 in china, 4 in Burma and 4 in India. I also changed the rules of AA guns so they fired up to 3 dice per round of combat and as preemptive shots. And it failed miserably. 2 planes were shot down total and it only spend up Japan taking India.
Maybe you just suffer bad luck dices?
In essence, you telling us that even boosted AAA are weak.
So, even if we make them 3 IPCs, they should not be made too weak.What do you think if the AAA A0D1M1C3, still keep up to 2 preemptive strike @1 vs planes ?
Is it still too weak?
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I’ll have to give it a shot and for whatever reason AA guns never seem to hit anything when I’m rolling for them. Unless I’m shooting at UK bombers they seem to get divested all the time. It’s been going on for 20 years now with me.
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@Baron:
I would like to say AA guns are horrible. I tried a game of Pacific '40 vs. myself. Using India crush and UK bought AA guns bringing there total up to 12. placing 4 in china, 4 in Burma and 4 in India. I also changed the rules of AA guns so they fired up to 3 dice per round of combat and as preemptive shots. And it failed miserably. 2 planes were shot down total and it only spend up Japan taking India.
What do you think if the AAA A0D1M1C3, still keep up to 2 preemptive strike @1 vs planes ?
Is it still too weak?
Based on the principles and calc put on this post by Fortress:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28725.msg1027160#msg1027160
I could at least try to show that these stats for a revised AAA guns are balance.AA gun firing 2 times at 2 fighters:
1/6 hit * 5/6 miss = 5/36 or 13.89%
5/6 miss * 1/6 hit = 5/36 or 13.89%
-Those are the two ways to get exactly 1 hit =10/36 or 27.78% hit exactly once * 10 IPC fighter = 2.78 IPC damage caused1/6 hit * 1/6 hit = 1/36 or 2.78%
-That is the only way to get exactly 2 hits = 2.78% hit exactly two times * 20 IPC for 2 fighters = 0.56 IPC damaged caused2.78+0.56=3.34 IPCs
A 3 IPCs mod. AAA gun causes at least 3.34 IPC average damage when there is at least 2 attacking planes, here is considered two Fighters.
But this is not always the case that there is attacking planes, as I showed in my earlier post.
On the other part, AAA can’t be use in offence. And when is put to reinforce a territory, it looses all its value if the attacker choose to use ground units instead of planes. All we can say, is that it can be a consolation knowing that sometimes, the fear of loosing valuable planes diverts attacker’s planes toward minor objective and forcing him to throw precious tanks in the AAA’s defended territory.
But, even then, it means that the defending player will loose this precious AAA doing nothing of what it was made for.So, when there is none, on a single round of regular fire then it could simply be 1/6 or 16.67% as I suggested keeping AAA a D1 unit.
And usually it can hit Inf unit at 3 IPCs.
1/6 x 3 = .5 IPC per active round of fire.
That’s the statistical damage that can be done for each surviving round after the first round also.So, if such AAA unit survives two rounds (my estimation of the average number of surviving rounds for a low defence and cost unit with a special ability), it will be at most 3.34 (1st rnd)+.5 (2nd rnd)= 3.84 IPCs of damage to the enemy when there is two attacking planes.
But if there is only 1 attacking plane, the damage probability for 2 rounds will be: 1.67 IPC (1st rnd)+ .5 IPC (2nd rnd) = 2.17 IPC damage caused.
The average (if it is really the average situation) will be (3.84+2.17)/2= 3.01 IPCs Damage caused.
And there is many situations when there is no attacking plane at all, let’s still suppose 2 rounds of defence: .5 IPC * 2 = 1 IPC damage cause.
And adding this third situation to the last average, making it the average of all the averages:
(3.84+2.17+1)/3= 2.34 IPCs Damage caused for 1 modified AAA unit.In this perspective, I think that keeping up to 2 preemptive defensive strikes @1 against planes is not too OverPowering even for a 3 IPCs AAA unit.
Edit NOTE: Of course, these averages don’t include in Calc TcB at 11 IPCs nor StB at 12 IPCs.
Which means they could be slightly above the sums above, but not that much considering that air fleet is mainly compose of Fighters.
I’ve just found this comment about the statistics of AA guns vs cost and capacities:
It’s interesting to consider this different point of view from Mr Roboto:My 2 cents as well.
AAA: I’ve heard many people suggesting to reduce the cost to 4. Actually an AAA gun is better than infantry already if it can potentially fire at 3 planes.
For calculation purposes:
6 AAA (30 IPC): 18 hits on planes. Averages 3 hits.
10 Inf (30 IPC): 3 1/3 hits.While the infantry does a little more damage, this damage probably only goes to enemy infantry. Additionally, planes hit by AAA can’t even fire back once.
Now the infantry of course has 4 hp more and can fire in the second round as well, but if the opponents attacks with such a large force that requires 6 AAA, these 10 inf will probably die in the first round anyway. This means you should always defend with as much AAA as necessary.Now if AAA is so good at defending, why aren’t they never bought? Simply because most powers start with enough already. The capitals start with 3-6 already, this means they can defend against 9-18 planes!!! Just replace some starting AAA with infantry and you will see people will start buying AAA. Of course some powers just don’t need them (USA, Japan for example).
If you allow AAA to shoot at 4 planes, they will be bought even less, since you need even fewer!If I use the same method:
For calculation purposes:10 modified AAA (30 IPCs): 20 hits on planes. Averages 3 1/3 hits.
10 Inf @2 on defense (30 IPCs): 20 hits. Averages 3 1/3 hits.However, we have to consider that modified AAA has D1, at least for another rounds:
So, it means +10 hit = 1 2/3 hits in addition to the previous 3 1/3.
Which means 5 hits.It seems superior to infantry but we must add the offensive capacity (and it excludes the artillery pairing): 10 Inf: 10 hits = 1 2/3 in addition to the previous 3 1/3.
The sums make also 5 hits.But, the comparison of Inf A1D2 is for 1 single round of OFF and DEF vs 2 rounds of DEF for AAA.
I think that by this method of calculation, we also see that the modified AAA is not Overpowered vs Infantry unit.
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As an historical notes, I just learned (as I was listening a doc about war heroes) that US Bofors AAA guns were converted in direct heavy machine guns against Germans Infantries during Normandy campaign. And Allies were on the offensive!
So it is still sound to have an AAA gun unit able to defend @1 vs regular units when there is no plane attacking.
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AA guns = @1 at each plane. Remove casualty. No defend.
@1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
D1 on being attacked.
Cost 5 -
@SS:
AA guns =
@1 at each plane. Remove casualty. No defend.
@1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
D1 on being attacked.
Cost 5Preemptive strike for the first round only? Then a regular D1 after?
This AA guns can hit a plane each round?
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Yes all first round only.
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But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?
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@Baron:
But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?
No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.
AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.
AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.
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@SS:
@Baron:
But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?
No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.
AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.
AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.
I still think that at 5 IPCs, you can keep the up to three @1 against 3 planes, which ever is less.
And even with a counter-intuitive unit able to attack and defend as a reg unit:
AAA A1D1M1C5, 1 hit, and fire vs up to 3 planes as OOB.I can say that it doesn’t change the tactical interest in them.
They may be more balance but the cost is clearly a cold shower.
Probably your AAA suggested should be cheaper.
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@SS:
@Baron:
But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?
No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.
AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.
AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.
Ok now I see what you wrote.
It is like the classic AA gun, all planes are targeted @1
or
1 @1 against all ground troops.So, in essence, if you have 2 AAA units, 1 will target all planes and the other will target all ground units.
10 IPCs for 2 AAA units and you get, in addition, 1 preemptive strike @1 against all attacking units.
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You can have more than 1 AA gun in territory. If you have only 1 AA gun in territory then it has to attack planes. If ground troops attack only then the AA gun attacks the Ground troops. If you have 3 AA guns and no planes attack, then 3 AA guns attack ground troops.
4 AA guns in territory = 1 AA gun attacks planes.
3 AA guns attack ground troops.4 AA guns in territory with no attacking planes = 4 AA guns attack ground troops.
Maybe lower cost to 4 icp`s, but might be to low.
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@SS:
You can have more than 1 AA gun in territory. If you have only 1 AA gun in territory then it has to attack planes. If ground troops attack only then the AA gun attacks the Ground troops. If you have 3 AA guns and no planes attack, then 3 AA guns attack ground troops.
4 AA guns in territory = 1 AA gun attacks planes.
3 AA guns attack ground troops.
4 AA guns in territory with no attacking planes = 4 AA guns attack ground troops.Maybe lower cost to 4 icp`s, but might be to low.
So each AAA, when not targeting planes can defend against 1 single ground unit during the preemptive fire round.
This limitless vs planes AA gun is clearly much more powerful than OOB.
Don’t need to lower the cost. 5 IPCs is just to the limit of OP.
The 1@1 preemptive vs ground is interesting but not historically accurate.Maybe, just the regular D1 vs ground when no plane or 2 and more AAAs in same territory be enough, since you upgrade the power vs planes.
It will allow AAA to be useful each round when no plane are present.In itself, your AAA unit should be interesting though.
But it clearly comes back to older way of using AA unit.I just wonder how the 5 IPCs can compete with other 4 IPCs Mech or 6 IPCs Armor in a game with less cash than G40, such 1942.2.
That’s why I was looking downward cheaper instead of increasing the 5 IPCs AAA capacities. -
@Baron:
Are you basing all your ideas here and on other posts towards the Global40 Game or some other game? Have you play tested any of your ideas here and other posts in any games?
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@SS:
@Baron:
Are you basing all your ideas here and on other posts towards the Global40 Game or some other game? Have you play tested any of your ideas here and other posts in any games?
Sorry, I wrote a longer answer but my computer or the connection get down somehow.
In short, yes I tried some (none on 1941, but all on 1942.1 and 1942.2) but I post many ideas to get a large Spectrum of possibilities before picking one.
On AAA, the one I tried a lot is the result of a previous exchange with Uncrustable (which he also input in his G40Enhanced thread) about AA guns:
A1D1M1C5, 1 hit, + preemptive AA@1 vs up to 3 planes, as OOB.It is Amon-Sul comments which open my mind about the fact that even this boosted AAA doesn’t change much in our game: few if no additional buying and no real tactical change:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31933.msg1253949#msg1253949That’s why I was looking for something better : an AAA unit that players will want to buy.
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