Exploring cheaper & weaker AAA guns unit to incite purchase

[baron Münchhausen]

@Yavid:

I would like to say AA guns are horrible. I tried a game of Pacific '40 vs. myself. Using India crush and UK bought AA guns bringing there total up to 12. placing 4 in china, 4 in Burma and 4 in India. I also changed the rules of AA guns so they fired up to 3 dice per round of combat and as preemptive shots. And it failed miserably. 2 planes were shot down total and it only spend up Japan taking India.

Maybe you just suffer bad luck dices?

In essence, you telling us that even boosted AAA are weak.
So, even if we make them 3 IPCs, they should not be made too weak.

What do you think if the AAA A0D1M1C3, still keep up to 2 preemptive strike @1 vs planes ?

Is it still too weak?

[Yavid]

I’ll have to give it a shot and for whatever reason AA guns never seem to hit anything when I’m rolling for them. Unless I’m shooting at UK bombers they seem to get divested all the time. It’s been going on for 20 years now with me.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@Yavid:

I would like to say AA guns are horrible. I tried a game of Pacific '40 vs. myself. Using India crush and UK bought AA guns bringing there total up to 12. placing 4 in china, 4 in Burma and 4 in India. I also changed the rules of AA guns so they fired up to 3 dice per round of combat and as preemptive shots. And it failed miserably. 2 planes were shot down total and it only spend up Japan taking India.

What do you think if the AAA A0D1M1C3, still keep up to 2 preemptive strike @1 vs planes ?

Is it still too weak?

Based on the principles and calc put on this post by Fortress:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28725.msg1027160#msg1027160
I could at least try to show that these stats for a revised AAA guns are balance.

AA gun firing 2 times at 2 fighters:

1/6 hit * 5/6 miss = 5/36 or 13.89%
5/6 miss * 1/6 hit = 5/36 or 13.89%
-Those are the two ways to get exactly 1 hit =10/36 or 27.78% hit exactly once * 10 IPC fighter = 2.78 IPC damage caused

1/6 hit * 1/6 hit = 1/36 or 2.78%
-That is the only way to get exactly 2 hits = 2.78% hit exactly two times * 20 IPC for 2 fighters = 0.56 IPC damaged caused

2.78+0.56=3.34 IPCs

A 3 IPCs mod. AAA gun causes at least 3.34 IPC average damage when there is at least 2 attacking planes, here is considered two Fighters.

But this is not always the case that there is attacking planes, as I showed in my earlier post.

On the other part, AAA can’t be use in offence. And when is put to reinforce a territory, it looses all its value if the attacker choose to use ground units instead of planes. All we can say, is that it can be a consolation knowing that sometimes, the fear of loosing valuable planes diverts attacker’s planes toward minor objective and forcing him to throw precious tanks in the AAA’s defended territory.
But, even then, it means that the defending player will loose this precious AAA doing nothing of what it was made for.

So, when there is none, on a single round of regular fire then it could simply be 1/6 or 16.67% as I suggested keeping AAA a D1 unit.
And usually it can hit Inf unit at 3 IPCs.
1/6 x 3 = .5 IPC per active round of fire.
That’s the statistical damage that can be done for each surviving round after the first round also.

So, if such AAA unit survives two rounds (my estimation of the average number of surviving rounds for a low defence and cost unit with a special ability), it will be at most 3.34 (1st rnd)+.5 (2nd rnd)= 3.84 IPCs of damage to the enemy when there is two attacking planes.

But if there is only 1 attacking plane, the damage probability for 2 rounds will be: 1.67 IPC (1st rnd)+ .5 IPC (2nd rnd) = 2.17 IPC damage caused.

The average (if it is really the average situation) will be (3.84+2.17)/2= 3.01 IPCs Damage caused.

And there is many situations when there is no attacking plane at all, let’s still suppose 2 rounds of defence: .5 IPC * 2 = 1 IPC damage cause.

And adding this third situation to the last average, making it the average of all the averages:
(3.84+2.17+1)/3= 2.34 IPCs Damage caused for 1 modified AAA unit.

In this perspective, I think that keeping up to 2 preemptive defensive strikes @1 against planes is not too OverPowering even for a 3 IPCs AAA unit.

Edit NOTE: Of course, these averages don’t include in Calc TcB at 11 IPCs nor StB at 12 IPCs.
Which means they could be slightly above the sums above, but not that much considering that air fleet is mainly compose of Fighters.

---

I’ve just found this comment about the statistics of AA guns vs cost and capacities:
It’s interesting to consider this different point of view from Mr Roboto:

@MrRoboto:

My 2 cents as well.

AAA: I’ve heard many people suggesting to reduce the cost to 4. Actually an AAA gun is better than infantry already if it can potentially fire at 3 planes.

For calculation purposes:

6 AAA (30 IPC): 18 hits on planes. Averages 3 hits.
10 Inf (30 IPC):  3 1/3 hits.

While the infantry does a little more damage, this damage probably only goes to enemy infantry. Additionally, planes hit by AAA can’t even fire back once.
Now the infantry of course has 4 hp more and can fire in the second round as well, but if the opponents attacks with such a large force that requires 6 AAA, these 10 inf will probably die in the first round anyway. This means you should always defend with as much AAA as necessary.

Now if AAA is so good at defending, why aren’t they never bought? Simply because most powers start with enough already. The capitals start with 3-6 already, this means they can defend against 9-18 planes!!! Just replace some starting AAA with infantry and you will see people will start buying AAA. Of course some powers just don’t need them (USA, Japan for example).
If you allow AAA to shoot at 4 planes, they will be bought even less, since you need even fewer!

If I use the same method:
For calculation purposes:

10 modified AAA (30 IPCs): 20 hits on planes. Averages 3 1/3 hits.
10 Inf @2 on defense (30 IPCs): 20 hits. Averages 3 1/3 hits.

However, we have to consider that modified AAA has D1, at least for another rounds:
So, it means +10 hit = 1 2/3 hits in addition to the previous 3 1/3.
Which means 5 hits.

It seems superior to infantry but we must add the offensive capacity (and it excludes the artillery pairing): 10 Inf: 10 hits = 1 2/3 in addition to the previous 3 1/3.
The sums make also 5 hits.

But, the comparison of Inf A1D2 is for 1 single round of OFF and DEF vs 2 rounds of DEF for AAA.

I think that by this method of calculation, we also see that the modified AAA is not Overpowered vs Infantry unit.

[baron Münchhausen]

As an historical notes, I just learned (as I was listening a doc about war heroes) that US  Bofors AAA guns were converted in direct heavy machine guns against Germans Infantries during Normandy campaign. And Allies were on the offensive!

So it is still sound to have an AAA gun unit able to defend @1 vs regular units when there is no plane attacking.

[General 6 Stars]

AA guns =  @1 at each plane.  Remove casualty. No defend.
                @1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
                  D1 on being attacked.
                  Cost 5

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

AA guns =
@1 at each plane. Remove casualty. No defend.
@1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
D1 on being attacked.
Cost 5

Preemptive strike for the first round only? Then a regular D1 after?

This AA guns can hit a plane each round?

[General 6 Stars]

Yes all first round only.

[baron Münchhausen]

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

[General 6 Stars]

@Baron:

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.

AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.

AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

@Baron:

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.

AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.

AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.

I still think that at 5 IPCs, you can keep the up to three @1 against 3 planes, which ever is less.

And even with a counter-intuitive unit able to attack and defend as a reg unit:
AAA A1D1M1C5, 1 hit, and fire vs up to 3 planes as OOB.

I can say that it doesn’t change the tactical interest in them.

They may be more balance but the cost is clearly a cold shower.

Probably your AAA suggested should be cheaper.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

@Baron:

But then, the other round, the AAA can still target plane or not?

No. AA gets preemtive shot at each attacking plane at @1. Casualties do not return fire.

AA gets a preemtive shot at attacking ground troops @1. Casualty does not get to return fire.

AA gets to defend at 1 on attack for first round only.

Ok now I see what you wrote.
It is like the classic AA gun, all planes are targeted @1
or
1 @1 against all ground troops.

So, in essence, if you have 2 AAA units, 1 will target all planes and the other will target all ground units.

10 IPCs for 2 AAA units and you get, in addition, 1 preemptive strike @1 against all attacking units.

[General 6 Stars]

You can have more than 1 AA gun in territory. If you have only 1 AA gun in territory then it has to attack planes. If ground troops attack only then the AA gun attacks  the Ground troops. If you have 3 AA guns and no planes attack, then  3 AA guns attack ground troops.

4 AA guns in territory = 1  AA gun attacks planes.
                                 3  AA guns attack ground troops.

4 AA guns in territory with no attacking planes = 4 AA guns attack ground troops.

Maybe lower cost to 4 icp`s, but might be to low.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

You can have more than 1 AA gun in territory. If you have only 1 AA gun in territory then it has to attack planes. If ground troops attack only then the AA gun attacks the Ground troops. If you have 3 AA guns and no planes attack, then 3 AA guns attack ground troops.

4 AA guns in territory = 1 AA gun attacks planes.
3 AA guns attack ground troops.
4 AA guns in territory with no attacking planes = 4 AA guns attack ground troops.

Maybe lower cost to 4 icp`s, but might be to low.

So each AAA, when not targeting planes can defend against 1 single ground unit during the preemptive fire round.
This limitless vs planes AA gun is clearly much more powerful than OOB.
Don’t need to lower the cost. 5 IPCs is just to the limit of OP.
The 1@1 preemptive vs ground is interesting but not historically accurate.

Maybe, just the regular D1 vs ground when no plane or 2 and more AAAs in same territory be enough, since you upgrade the power vs planes.
It will allow AAA to be useful each round when no plane are present.

In itself, your AAA unit should be interesting though.
But it clearly comes back to older way of using AA unit.

I just wonder how the 5 IPCs can compete with other 4 IPCs Mech or 6 IPCs Armor in a game with less cash than G40, such 1942.2.
That’s why I was looking downward cheaper instead of increasing the 5 IPCs AAA capacities.

[General 6 Stars]

@Baron:

Are you basing all your ideas here and on other posts towards the Global40 Game or some other game? Have you play tested any of your ideas here and other posts in any games?

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

@Baron:

Are you basing all your ideas here and on other posts towards the Global40 Game or some other game? Have you play tested any of your ideas here and other posts in any games?

Sorry, I wrote a longer answer but my computer or the connection get down somehow.

In short, yes I tried some (none on 1941, but all on 1942.1 and 1942.2) but I post many ideas to get a large Spectrum of possibilities before picking one.

On AAA, the one I tried a lot is the result of a previous exchange with Uncrustable (which he also input in his G40Enhanced thread) about AA guns:
A1D1M1C5, 1 hit, + preemptive AA@1 vs up to 3 planes, as OOB.

It is Amon-Sul comments which open my mind about the fact that even this boosted AAA doesn’t change much in our game: few if no additional buying and no real tactical change:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31933.msg1253949#msg1253949

That’s why I was looking for something better : an AAA unit that players will want to buy.

[baron Münchhausen]

Too be fair about others contribution, I should add that many players suggested to keep OOB AAA with up to 3 preemptive @1 vs planes, but put it at 4 IPCs or, even, 3 IPCs.

So my last main idea, of a AAA A0D1M1C3, on this thread is clearly inspired by ryguy analysis, even if I slighlty lower down the anti-aircraft capacity preemptive @1 to up to 2 planes instead of three aircrafts (trying to keep a balance unit):

@ryguy:

I originally started this thread because I felt that AA guns should be allowed to shoot their full loads (pun intended) at incoming planes instead of being limited to how many planes are attacking. I feel convinced now that that would make AA guns overpowered against planes.

However, that doesn’t fix the fact that no one buys AA guns. It seems like the designers are trying to involve AA guns more by changing their rules, and now each nation has AA units in their own color. Still, no one is going to buy them except in rare cases. As mentioned earlier in this thread, maybe some anti-tank rules will give them versatility. Maybe some kind of pairing scheme where they boost the attack/defense of another type of unit. Maybe lowering the cost to 4 or 3 IPCs. Something that would make you actually consider buying them (I’m sure someone is going to say they buy them all the time).

It’s not that the current AA rules are broken; it’s just that I wish they could do more.

Here is a better presentation of the movement hindrance of AAA unit:
@ryguy:

Part of the problem might be that they are so damn immobile when traveling overseas. Why can’t AA guns move during the combat phase? Would it mess the game up completely? If you capture a territory overland, you can always move the AA gun into that territory during the non-combat phase on the same turn so you are accomplishing the same thing.
You can’t do that via transports however if the transport was involved during the combat phase.
Why can’t you just unload the damn AA guns with the attacking force?
Why not treat AA guns like tanks/mech infantry/artillery in respect to transports?
Why not let the AA guns travel with the attacking force overland during the combat phase?

If we’re talking in real life terms this might seem weird (I’m not a buff on military equipment used in WWII) but it makes them more versatile. You can make it a rule that AA guns can’t be chosen as casualties when attacking if you wish, but they definitely cannot shoot at planes when attacking. They’re just along for the ride. This makes it much easier to transport them overseas without having to purchase separate transports for the non-combat phase. I like mixed arms and this might incorporate AA guns into the mix more often for the Allies.
I’m not sure if I like the idea of one IPC AA guns with one shot. I would rather see the current AA gun scheme with a value of 3-4 IPC’s with the above rule changes about movement perhaps. If they’re valued under infantry they will get used as fodder more than their original purpose and I don’t like that.

I still find it strange that AA guns can be chosen as casualties first.
[…]

@ErwinRommel:

If you want to see more AA guns on the map you can houserule them to cost 4IPC.

Here is one other influence about how I see one of the problem that makes AAA guns a less interesting unit for buying and can be fix relatively easily:
@oztea:

I don’t know why AA guns don’t continue to fire round after round….even just 1 shot. And heck, even just 1 shot, at ‘1’ against other land units.
Lets be realistic here…these things could be pointed at the horizon too.
[…]

Something more coming from Wild Bill:

I think that AA guns soaking hits was done to make up for the fact they don’t shoot at every plane now (limited to 3 air units each). Maybe they should get to fire in every round of the battle, but at a reduced rate. After the opening fire of 3 shots at air units (preempt), allow each gun to continue firing 1 shot at air units in later rounds of the battle, but fire w/other units (no preempt). That would keep them from being used as soakers if air is used in the attack.

Could even remove the preempt roll from the opening round, and allow those air units that are hit by AA to get their attack roll to make up for the multi-rounds use of AA guns. Kinda like how units hit w/bombardment now get to keep their def roll.

I like the changes to AA, but think they should have a limited roll in later rounds of the battle.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149&start=128

Here is similar ideas and some variation for the in-built AAA guns:

I would not be in favor of reducing the cost of AA guns to 2 IPCs, I think that is ridiculous. Maybe 4 IPCs because of its reduced roll, or allow them to continue firing at air craft at 1 shot per AA gun in later rounds of the same battle to keep them relevant (not taken as the first causality if your going to lose the tt, but they have air units) .

Should be added to SBR rules IMO:

1. Each facility is simulated to have 1 built in AA gun that fires 3 shots in SBR. Any bmrs/tacs in excess to 3 would not get shot at. (maybe allow major ICs to have 2 built in AA guns showing more commitment to AA def for a larger infrastructure, 6 shots)

2. Any facility that has 1/2 damage or more also shuts down its AA ability. Your allies may be able to SBR w/o AA cover, or if they don’t fix it you can bury it on your next turn w/less risk or no risk.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149&start=136

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is my latest version of a Modified AAA with up to 2 preemptive @1 which is nearer the actual OOB AAA ( up to 3 planes):
@Baron:

Here is what I would try to input to find how it have an impact over planes tactics and buying:

AAA A0D1M1C3, 1 hit, can move during CM but not into any enemy’s territory, on the first round, if any attacking plane, _**instead of regular D1, gets a preemptive AA@1 targeting up to 2 planes whichever is less, and keeping a regular D1 after first round.
This unit can also be left alone to defend a territory (contrary to the actual OOB).
It can be seen as a kind of Garrison unit: cannot attack, can only move in already conquered territory but can be left behind against invaders to make a casualty.

And, with 1D1, it is half chance to hit than Inf. But if the attacker take the risk to use plane to invade the territory, then the defender can get the “jack pot” and sometimes be able to crash down an enemy’s plane.

Of course transport can only hold: up to 1 Inf and 1 AAA.
AAA can now be put on a transport during Combat Move, to increase tactics and speed.
I would allow this special transport off-load of AAA unit during NCM:
Can unload from a non-moving transport during NCM, even if the transport unload during Combat Move in the same SZ.

Inspired by some questions from Limo a new Conscript,
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33139.msg1255719#msg1255719
I want to introduce per comparison a still simpler AAA unit than my latest Modified AAA which will be nearer a regular unit as possible (but keeping some historical feel).

Some basics principles of regular unit are:
1 unit can destroy 1 unit per combat round.
1 unit fire once per combat round.
1 unit worth 1 hit. (Except for costlier BB and CV.)

So, let’s AAA be a defensive only unit @1.
Let’s it be able to target 1 single plane per combat round.

The initial preemptive strike is kept (for balance vs actual start-up board.)
But should be abandon to be in phase with other regular unit.
The preemptive @1 vs planes must be kept only for Strategic Bombing Raid vs Industrial Complex, Naval Base and Air Base.

As a defensive unit with A0, it can only move during NCM.
However, 1 transport can load up to 2 AAA units or 1 Inf and 1 AAA, (take same cargo space as 1 Inf).
(This last point will partly resolve the slower transport problem with AAA on amphibious assault. Because you can now keep behind 1 dedicated transport for 2 AAA units moving only in NCM.)

Final result:
Simplified AAA unit:
Attack 0
Defense 1
Move 1 Non-combat only.
Cost 3 IPCs
Hit taken: 1
Always target plane first (if any present), only 1 plane per round.
For the initial round only: get 1 preemptive strike vs 1 plane.
It gives AAA the capacity to fire every round after first one, 1@1 but only to the maximum of aircraft over the territory.
Even if there is more AAAs than planes in a given round, it still be 1 dice/plane max.
We must considered that all extra AAAs in excess of planes will get a regular Defence roll @1.
Transport can pick up to 2 AAAs (take same cargo space as 1 Infantry).
I think it is still balance, especially for four rounds or fewer battles (maybe AAA will be more valuable for longer battle, IDK).

It is still possible to weaken it by completely erasing @1 first strike ability vs plane.

Do you think it can change the game positively if introduce?
Or this simplified solution is it still too much Overpowering them?

I’ve just found that Oakshield was going in the same direction than me:

AA guns need to be re-thought, and moved closer towards general combat - that’s the direction followed by being able to take them as casualties. Next should be no preemptive strike, no ‘one shot then forget’, no strange maths on how many units can be hit, no in-built AA, no separate rolls for facility.

I can see the AA as attack 0, defense 1, fires every round, only kills air units as a 4 IPC unit, since it skips the order of battle and gets to destroy 10+ IPC units.
After that, it’s all about how many AA guns you want to stack. A bombing run on Wake isn’t the same as one on Berlin.

A single shot per AA might seem weak for the one-round combat of SBR. However, in real life interceptors were the ones doing the job of killing bombers, on a 1/10 ratio to AA.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149&start=144**_

[crusaderiv]

AA guns =  @1 at each plane.  Remove casualty. No defend.
                @1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
                  D1 on being attacked.
                  Cost 5

Bingo. A simple rule.
Exception…German can used AA gun as 88 gun. Player can choose to destroy tank or plane but no both.
(If choose the tank, AA gun can roll each turn).
You can add something similar to the UK player. Bophor gun.
Against plane or infantry. Same rule…

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

AA guns =  @1 at each plane. Remove casualty. No defend.
@1 at ground troops. Remove casualty. No defend.
 D1 on being attacked.
 Cost 5

Bingo. A simple rule.
Exception…German can used AA gun as 88 gun. Player can choose to destroy tank or plane but no both.
(If choose the tank, AA gun can roll each turn).
You can add something similar to the UK player. Bophor gun.
Against plane or infantry. Same rule…

Don’t know if it is a simple rule, or
if this unit once clearly defined will be much more popular,
but the formulation isn’t simple and need much more clarifications.
Please bring up more explanations on this 5 IPCs AAA.

In addition, this imply that you keep the OOB move 1 on NCM only, and AAA move by transport will be as slow as they were.

Does AAA have hit as regular combat unit or not?

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is the different values and ability brought up to enhance the popularity of AAA guns which I think can make a balance unit:

Lowering cost: 5, 4 or 3 IPCs. (2 was too unbalancing IMHO)

Varying the number of planes targeted: 1, 2, 3, 4, unlimited.
Allowing fire on planes first round only, or every round.
Allowing up to the max of 1 roll per plane…
Or just 1 hit per each AAA as a regular unit.

Allowing or not preemptive strike: first round, every round, none.
On planes only, and on Tank or Ground units.

Making it Anti-tank gun in addition (when no plane is present): target 1 or 3 Tank, on first round.

Adding a regular firing (when no plane) or after first round: A0D1, or even A1D1.

Allowing regular Move, not just NCM.
Making 2 AAAs units able to load on a single transport.

I think it summarize all the abilities. Did I forget something?