@Cmdr:
I prefer to build up a US landingforce outside gibraltar, shipping some landforces over, but mostly keeping them there, with transports.
If you have 8 transports outside gibraltar, they have 16 landunits and possibly 8 planes for support a landing. Then the axis need to protect w germany, rome, north italy with about 25 units on each place. and they need to be able to counterattack a landingforce of 16 US landunits + 12-18 british landunits + all british planes. this means (depending on turn) that germany need to be able to kill 34-40 units in normandy. otherwise US can start production.
the strength of a transport with load standing outside of gibraltar is that the axis need at least 4 lanunits to hold the vital spots, and 6-8 to defend all the important things.
Or just have a counter force located in France to reclaim W. France, S. France, or Holland (perhaps N. Italy too, assuming they cant block a landing there.)Â Requires 18 ground units and planes, who who doesnt have planes around the map?
Personaly, Kill Japan First has LONG been a favorite strategy of mine. It got a whole HELLUVA lot easier in Axis and Allies revised, then I think Larry (game creator) had a heart attack or something and made it a lot harder in Anniversary (my opinion) and then balanced it out a little in 1940. Course, for a while there, before such things as Alpha 2, 2nd Edition etc, it was still a lot easier than going for Germany! The risk of Sea Lion being the only thing from making Kill Japan the ONLY road to take and doing it in 8 or 9 rounds. (After all, you had to liberate London!)
KJF might have become easier in revised, but it doesn’t mean it was a good strategy. A good Axis player would just stall America for far too long and then have Germany become 70+ IPC monster.
It is pretty easy for Germany to hit 70, can do it in 3-4 rounds
@Cow:
It is pretty easy for Germany to hit 70, can do it in 3-4 rounds
In revised there aren’t NO’s and Germany starts with 40. I wouldn’t say it is easy for Germany to get to 70 since that is all of russia and 6 IPC’s from other places also.
@Cow:
It is pretty easy for Germany to hit 70, can do it in 3-4 rounds
In revised there aren’t NO’s and Germany starts with 40. I wouldn’t say it is easy for Germany to get to 70 since that is all of russia and 6 IPC’s from other places also.
No one ever stopped my KJF in AAR. But then, I had a lot of experience with KJF in Classic that I brought over. Anniversary is when it got really hard and now it’s sorta viable again.
I started working on my own version of KJF when someone here told me it was impossible and that the Allies would always lose in a KJF game. (I later beat the ever living CR@P out of him on the boards to the point he tried a vendetta and then left when no one cared about his nonsense. - but that drama is for another day!)
Anyway, the whole thing is outlined on the boards somewhere. If you can’t find it, I can type it up again. But in AAR, Japan had NO ability to stop it and within 4 rounds, SHOULD be castrated with 5 rounds being landings in Russia to liberate, or landings in SE Asia (depending on where you decided to set up your transports.)
In classic it was a lot harder, due to the prices and the fragility of your ships.
In anniversary it was darn near impossible due to the strength of the Japanese fleet and the ready deployment of massive quantities of fodder. It just took too darn long for America to overcome the odds.
In 1940 the problems with KJF are thus: (A) no industrial complexes on islands anymore. A MAJOR tenant of KJF is the rapid deployment of reinforcements through island bases. (B) the nearly double or triple (depending on avenue of travel) of sea zones on the board. Again, a MAJOR tenant of KJF is the rapid deployment of reinforcements! © the introduction of aircraft carrier (aka Kamikazee magnets) Kamikazee attacks that can, in theory, cost you up to 12 fighters (one at each of 6 carriers damaging each with no valid landing zone left.) (D) Cover air patrol from local islands making the initial attacks more difficult. And (E) being able to cover the entire South/Souteast Pacific with a ridiculous amount of air cover with Japan - and that being a traditional spot for the planes anyway!
None of those impediments exist in Classic or Revised. Which is why KJF works so bloody well in both those games!
Ok the reason KJF doesn’t work in revised is the amount of money US has vs Japans money. Sure after your first buy with US you are going to have 2 carriers 4 fighters a battleship 3 transports (2 from europe) and 2 DD’s (one also from europe), but Japans fleet is going to consit of 2 carriers 6 fighters 2 battleships 4 transports and possibly a destroyer. Japan makes 33 on his first turn. On his second turn as Japan I’d just buy 5 subs and an inf with Japan if I saw a KJF. US buys his 5 subs destroyer. Now US has a lead in ships, but you have to remember that US is still two turns away from the money islands, while Japan is just 1 for the most part. As long as Japan stalls US for 5 rounds before US takes East Indies (and can hold it and build a factory the next turn). Then the axis are golden. Russia will be dead by the time the East Indies factory first starts pumping out units, and you can’t just stop putting ships into pacific as US. Japan still should have a huge Navy at this point since she was spending her 40 dollar IPC’s on all ships. That is the problem. You can’t just do as you say and switch to landing in europe. No way africa hasn’t been overrun by germany, and no way Moscow isn’t taken. I’d love to play against you as the axis with a 9 bid and show you what I mean.
Re. KJF/KGF in 1940. Thanks to the victory conditions, it’s moot :-D Every game is ‘realistic’. Eventually, playing this way will get tiresome and we’ll want to play some other way….but for now it’s great!
Re. KJF in Revised it’s nowhere near as easy as Comm Jen paints. But it’s far from impossible. The current experts in Revised KJF play over at Game Table Online in the Revised Champion’s League. For info on KJF read anything by bmaster (eumais in these forums) and see my KJF Basics article. I’m not an expert in KJF; but I have good experience against KJF as Axis so I have ideas on what works and what doesn’t. KJF is a dice strategy and perhaps not viable in low luck.
Imho KJF is about as viable in aa50:41 as it is in revised…possibly even more so. Ie risky but doable (provided you have sufficient skill) in dice games. In aa50:42, Japan is easier to defeat, but KJF is probably less viable because Germany is such a beast.
Re. KJF in Revised it’s nowhere near as easy as Comm Jen paints. Â But it’s far from impossible. Â The current experts in Revised KJF play over at Game Table Online in the Revised Champion’s League. Â For info on KJF read anything by bmaster (eumais in these forums) and see my KJF Basics article. Â I’m not an expert in KJF; but I have good experience against KJF as Axis so I have ideas on what works and what doesn’t. Â KJF is a dice strategy and perhaps not viable in low luck.
I am an expert in KJF. Personally, it is easier for me to neuter Japan than it is to take Berlin. This is a PERSONAL opinion and I am not trying to force it down anyone else’s throat for two reasons: (1) I may be wrong. (2) I don’t know your experience level or how you play the game.
That said, you need zero transports for KJF. Not a single one. As I said, KJF has nothing to do with taking Tokyo. If you can, great, but it’s not a part of the strategy. The strategy, in the largeset possible terms is thus:
A) Prevent Japan from being able to sink the Allied fleet.
B) Be able to sink the Japanese fleet.
C) Move the Japanese fleet out of position, or sink the Japanese fleet. (remember, a fleet that has moved to the Med or is in the Indian ocean is useless to the Axis. Well, virtually so.)
D. Prevent the Japanese from being able to build or reinforce their fleet (if their fleet is out of position, this is virtually assured anyway.)
E) Invade Asia Minor and Asia Proper and start sending in reinforcements to Russia via the far east/China.
You should take distinct notice of the lack of any mention of invading Japan itself. Screw them. You don’t have to take the island, you don’t have to bomb the island, you literally need to do nothing too them. Once you own the Japanese Sea you can leave a carrier or two or whatever you need for shuttling troops from Alaska into SFE without risk. Park the fleet where the US Marines are located now, and Japan is done. They get a turn, they guy to build, they may even have a few combat rounds left, but they are through as a power on the game board.
This was the ONE major aspect that got a certain someone pissed off. He thought I had to take Tokyo, and I never did, instead I crippled Japan and sent massive amount of arms and armor through Russia via the back door. He got Moscow, until America liberated and Russia reinforced again.
Essentially, that is how it is in Revised/Classic. Anniversary is a different animal altogther. Personally, I dont like Anniversary because it is unrealistic in the Pacific. (My opinion.) I like G40 since I can go back to my Japanese strategy - not as much as Revised/Classic, and thus it is more realistic to the real war, but still I can do some.
Lastly, let me point out, THIS IS A GAME, if you want realistic, then you have to forbid the axis to win no matter what.
Thanks for not trying to force it down any ones throat.
@Cmdr:
Re. KJF in Revised it’s nowhere near as easy as Comm Jen paints. � But it’s far from impossible. � The current experts in Revised KJF play over at Game Table Online in the Revised Champion’s League. � For info on KJF read anything by bmaster (eumais in these forums) and see my KJF Basics article. � I’m not an expert in KJF; but I have good experience against KJF as Axis so I have ideas on what works and what doesn’t. � KJF is a dice strategy and perhaps not viable in low luck.
I am an expert in KJF. Personally, it is easier for me to neuter Japan than it is to take Berlin. This is a PERSONAL opinion and I am not trying to force it down anyone else’s throat for two reasons: (1) I may be wrong. (2) I don’t know your experience level or how you play the game.
That said, you need zero transports for KJF. Not a single one. As I said, KJF has nothing to do with taking Tokyo. If you can, great, but it’s not a part of the strategy. The strategy, in the largeset possible terms is thus:
A) Prevent Japan from being able to sink the Allied fleet.Â
B) Be able to sink the Japanese fleet.
C) Move the Japanese fleet out of position, or sink the Japanese fleet. (remember, a fleet that has moved to the Med or is in the Indian ocean is useless to the Axis. Well, virtually so.)
D. Prevent the Japanese from being able to build or reinforce their fleet (if their fleet is out of position, this is virtually assured anyway.)
E) Invade Asia Minor and Asia Proper and start sending in reinforcements to Russia via the far east/China.You should take distinct notice of the lack of any mention of invading Japan itself. Screw them. You don’t have to take the island, you don’t have to bomb the island, you literally need to do nothing too them. Once you own the Japanese Sea you can leave a carrier or two or whatever you need for shuttling troops from Alaska into SFE without risk. Park the fleet where the US Marines are located now, and Japan is done. They get a turn, they guy to build, they may even have a few combat rounds left, but they are through as a power on the game board.
This was the ONE major aspect that got a certain someone pissed off. He thought I had to take Tokyo, and I never did, instead I crippled Japan and sent massive amount of arms and armor through Russia via the back door. He got Moscow, until America liberated and Russia reinforced again.Â
Essentially, that is how it is in Revised/Classic. Anniversary is a different animal altogther. Personally, I dont like Anniversary because it is unrealistic in the Pacific. (My opinion.) I like G40 since I can go back to my Japanese strategy - not as much as Revised/Classic, and thus it is more realistic to the real war, but still I can do some.Â
Lastly, let me point out, THIS IS A GAME, if you want realistic, then you have to forbid the axis to win no matter what.
Not trying to be mean, but it is obvious that a KJF doesn’t take Japan itself. You take the money islands and build factories there from which you offload troops onto the mainland. This will essentially cripple Japan into making 8 dollars a turn. Then you just worry about Germany, but what I am saying is that Russia will be long dead and Germany all over Asia by the time you are able to do all of these things VS an expert player.
you can’t make factos on islands… but I see your point.
You can in revised and classic, Cow.
Yes, you cripple Japan which can be done long before Germany breaks out again using the proper Russian and British open. Especially in Revised. It’s why I usually let my opponent have a 24 IPC or larger bid with the Axis, since I know without it, Germany is crippled round 1 and disabled until round 5 before Russia is back on the defensive on home soil, and by then, England has reestablished naval supremecy so they can start landing a troop and firing 6 or 7 shore bombardments doing 4:1 dmg using Cruisers and Battleships. (In classic it was common, at the end of the game, to have 8-12 british battleships so you could amphibious 1 infantry and get 9-13 shots.)
I prefer Revised to Anniversary, I even prefer it slightly to Global 1940 with LHTR 2.0 rules (so Germany cant get LRA round 1 and use it round 1 to take England, which was a huge tactic before LHTR moved the implementation of technology to effect the round after discovery.)
In that case, Japan may be left with an American fleet in home waters (Japan’s home waters) and only losing Java/Sumatra/Phillippines/Celebes and leaving Japan all other islands they start with.
But yea, DM, myself and a few others came up with a really strong Russia open that essentially tears up the Russo-German front, killing 33% of the Luftwaffe and taking 25% of Germany’s starting territories. Cost Russia a lot, but they then had plenty of time to push infantry out to slow the Germans until England could dump troops and/or planes in to help.
jen, what kind of bidding rule are you using for 24?
if you can place all the units in one terr, surely 12 would suffice?
then germany can place 4 inf in libya, or 2 in libya 2 in ukraine (to protect the ftr)
To stick more with the original topic, what do people think of this plan:
Russia buys a Naval Base for Soviet Far East just before they suspect that the USA will be able to enter the war. Then when at war, the USA simply starts shucking troops directly from San Francisco to Siberia, with the US fleet parked off Siberia to threaten SZ6. Or, make things more economical by skipping the Naval Base and having the USA shuck troops between SZ2 & 3, with the trade-off being that the USA is investing more heavily in Tanks and Mech Inf so that reinforcements can get to Alaska in 1 turn. Of course, you may want to go the Tank/MInf route anyway to speed up travel times in Asia. The Russian troops can either stay and help out or rush back to Moscow.
jen, what kind of bidding rule are you using for 24?
if you can place all the units in one terr, surely 12 would suffice?
then germany can place 4 inf in libya, or 2 in libya 2 in ukraine (to protect the ftr)
all place at once. You need a MINIMUM of 12 IPC just to save Japan by putting units in Europe, then you need the normal bid to balance the game for the Axis.
The Russian open has an 80% chance of success, even if it fails you have nearly 95% odds of doing serious damage to the German war effort and if that fails, well, depending on how bad, (3% odds?) you may want to throw the towel in. It’s not really an all or nothing thing, but a disasterous showing there would be akin to Germany failling horribly at Sea Lion in 1940. Germany might survive, but it’s not good - likewise the Russians might survive, but it’s not good.
I like the shuttle idea in Siberia, but Japan should own those territories before America comes into the war.
@Cmdr:
I like the shuttle idea in Siberia, but Japan should own those territories before America comes into the war.
I’m not sure that matters so much. If the Allies are willing to commit to this scheme a priori, then Russia can plop down the Naval Base right away in R1 before they can be stopped. If it falls into Japanese hands J1 or later, America will likely just take it back the first turn they enter the war. If Japan sinks enough resources into the area to stop the US from landing ashore, they’ve already played into the Allies’ hands by diverting their troops into an area that won’t win them the game and/or are exposing their fleet to a US attack. Plus the Japanese are unlikely to be able to discourage a drop into both SZ4 & 3 at the same time. Even without the Naval Base, if Japan is sending all they have to stop the SZ2 - 3 shuck, so much the better.
@Cmdr:
I like the shuttle idea in Siberia, but Japan should own those territories before America comes into the war.
I’m not sure that matters so much. If the Allies are willing to commit to this scheme a priori, then Russia can plop down the Naval Base right away in R1 before they can be stopped. If it falls into Japanese hands J1 or later, America will likely just take it back the first turn they enter the war. If Japan sinks enough resources into the area to stop the US from landing ashore, they’ve already played into the Allies’ hands by diverting their troops into an area that won’t win them the game and/or are exposing their fleet to a US attack. Plus the Japanese are unlikely to be able to discourage a drop into both SZ4 & 3 at the same time. Even without the Naval Base, if Japan is sending all they have to stop the SZ2 - 3 shuck, so much the better.Â
These are all good points. The more time Japan spends up there, the less it seems they are trying to win on the Pac map.
Hmm, yes, but they have the home field advantage. They can shuttle troops via the northern route via a complex in Korea - I have done it before. 6 Mech, 4 arm a round and shove them down Russia’s throat. Supplement with what you need bridged from Japan into Korea and up and you could have a major problem.
On the other hand, Russia has now blown 15 IPC on a naval base round 1, instead of units to hold back Germany. -5 Infantry compounded by 3 or 4 rounds to move them into position and further compounded by less layering between a German assault and Russian armored units.
What I like about this strat is that it allows USA to attack Japan and help russia at the same time without a major split between maps. It’s almost a having the cake and eating it too situation. Japan isn’t doing much in the pac other than fight in siberia which might be ok, but this time the US is there and it isn’t really stealing anything from Russia. As someone said, you don’t really need the naval base to do it.
Isn’t Japan in the south sucking up all the money island while you are shucking?
Isn’t Japan in the south sucking up all the money island while you are shucking?
The way the strat was described to me it sounded like Japan had its hands full in the north with the full brunt of the US income every turn. ANZAC doesn’t have much, but it can do a little to challege Japan down there if most of Japan’s resources are committed to the mainland.
