I believe the surface warships could leave the sea zone in combat move phase and avoid a sea battle if the zone were hostile (which its not in this case) or if it could become hostile by scramble from an airbase (again, not a factor in this case). However, is the same true of a possible kamikaze strike? Can the surface ships leave the zone in combat move phase because a kamikaze attack could make it hostile? I feel like the answer depends on when exactly the kamikaze attack takes place and whether a kamikaze attack would create a sea battle, but I am fuzzy on those details.
Kamikaze is a defensive strike occurring at the beginning of the Conduct Combat Phase. So it does not make a seazone hostile, it does not create a sea battle.
So the “Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones”-rules do not apply here. You can however move ships out of that seazone during Combat Move Phase following the other rules for Combat Moves (for example move to a hostile seazone).
As I understand it, Kamikazes stop shore bombards because they create a sea battle, but kamikazes do not allow sub block because they do not create a sea battle like what happens when a plane is scrambled from an airbase.
No, Kamikaze does not create a sea battle. It stops bombards because of a special rule: “A kamikaze strike prevents offshore bombardment supporting an amphibious assault in that sea zone, whether or not the strike is successful”.
Kamikaze is irrelevant to the question whether an ignored submarine prevents a transport from unloading, because the requirement of a warship escorting the transport has to be fulfilled at the end of the Combat Move Phase (and not during the Conduct Combat Phase).
HTH :-)
Ahh that clarifies a lot. Thank you P@nther
So while the US ships could move to a hostile SZ in combat movement, they couldn’t move to a friendly one, is that what you are saying? Seems to be the black letter rule but I think it goes against the spirit of the rules. Hmm.
No it actually follows the spirit of the rules Simon. You were never allowed to make a non-combat move during the combat movement phase with any type of units. The only exception to the rules regarding that is what variance already pointed out, that being a non-combat move from a hostile sea zone to avoid combat. I know that sometimes people make non-combat moves at the same time that they are making their combat moves, but technically it is against the rules and always has been.
No it actually follows the spirit of the rules Simon. You were never allowed to make a non-combat move during the combat movement phase with any type of units. The only exception to the rules regarding that is what variance already pointed out, that being a non-combat move from a hostile sea zone to avoid combat. I know that sometimes people make non-combat moves at the same time that they are making their combat moves, but technically it is against the rules and always has been.
What about the exception which allows you to escape battle?
I mentioned that one, about beginning your turn in a hostile sea zone. It’s only relevant for naval units since there’s no way land units from opposing sides could possibly be in the same territory at the end of someone’s turn, and therefore could not escape combat. If you mean retreating, that doesn’t happen on the combat movement or non-combat movement phase. It happens during combat.
The thing is, even if there was a kamikaze strike carried out in said seazone, ships in that zone would still be able to move in the non-combat phase normally because they were not involved with “combat” because the kamikazes didn’t “create” combat in the zone.
So it’s not like when someone builds a destroyer into your zone or moves a sub into your zone that you want to attack, where you would need the rule that allows you to move away to avoid combat. The kamikaze strike doesn’t prevent your ships (that weren’t involved in bombarding) from moving in non-com the way they would be prevented from moving if they were engaged in combat with an enemy ship.
Does Turkey connect to Bulgaria as in real life?
The thing is, even if there was a kamikaze strike carried out in said seazone, ships in that zone would still be able to move in the non-combat phase normally because they were not involved with “combat” because the kamikazes didn’t “create” combat in the zone.
So it’s not like when someone builds a destroyer into your zone or moves a sub into your zone that you want to attack, where you would need the rule that allows you to move away to avoid combat. The kamikaze strike doesn’t prevent your ships (that weren’t involved in bombarding) from moving in non-com the way they would be prevented from moving if they were engaged in combat with an enemy ship.
Possibly, but would the rule about sea/land units participating in combat not being able to participate in ncm apply if a kamikaze strike missed?
However, this attack can still knock planes off aircraft carriers so can be pretty devastating, even if you are right.
I mentioned that one, about beginning your turn in a hostile sea zone. It’s only relevant for naval units since there’s no way land units from opposing sides could possibly be in the same territory at the end of someone’s turn, and therefore could not escape combat. If you mean retreating, that doesn’t happen on the combat movement or non-combat movement phase. It happens during combat.
Perhaps what I was saying is unclear. If you can move to escape a combat which might hurt your ships, why can’t you move to escape a Kamikaze which also might hurt your ships? Of course, it only is a problem if you have a potential Kamikaze and no potential scramble, so not a frequent scenario.
@IKE:
Does Turkey connect to Bulgaria as in real life?
No. You clearly need to go through Greece.
Possibly, but would the rule about sea/land units participating in combat not being able to participate in ncm apply if a kamikaze strike missed?
I think that Gamer’s saying that kamikazes have no effect on what the surviving ships can or can’t do during NCM, regardless of whether they hit or miss.
@IKE:
Does Turkey connect to Bulgaria as in real life?
No. You clearly need to go through Greece.
Bulgaria and Turkey share a 167 mile border, same as before WWII started.
No it actually follows the spirit of the rules Simon. You were never allowed to make a non-combat move during the combat movement phase with any type of units. The only exception to the rules regarding that is what variance already pointed out, that being a non-combat move from a hostile sea zone to avoid combat. I know that sometimes people make non-combat moves at the same time that they are making their combat moves, but technically it is against the rules and always has been.
Exactly, GHG:
@rulebook:
Phase 2: Combat Move
…
Movement in this game is separated into combat movement and noncombat
movement phases. During the Combat Move phase, all movement must end
in a hostile space, with a few exceptions (see below). Movement into a hostile
space counts as combat movement whether that space is occupied or not.
Additional movement that doesn’t end in a hostile space occurs during the
Noncombat Move phase (phase 4).
…
If you can move to escape a combat which might hurt your ships, why can’t you move to escape a Kamikaze which also might hurt your ships?
You can escape but only during Combat Move Phase, provided the seazone is hostile!
In that case you escape combat from a hostile seazone as allowed by the rules, avoiding Kamikaze as a side effect.
In the discussed scenario the Kamikaze seazone is friendly. There is no escape from a friendly seazone (also there is no and can’t be combat).
Attacking ships are brought to a Kamikaze seazone for a reason - accepting the risk of Kamikaze.
So if you want to “escape” from that risk, don’t bring surface warships there.
The thing is, even if there was a kamikaze strike carried out in said seazone, ships in that zone would still be able to move in the non-combat phase normally because they were not involved with “combat” because the kamikazes didn’t “create” combat in the zone.
So it’s not like when someone builds a destroyer into your zone or moves a sub into your zone that you want to attack, where you would need the rule that allows you to move away to avoid combat. The kamikaze strike doesn’t prevent your ships (that weren’t involved in bombarding) from moving in non-com the way they would be prevented from moving if they were engaged in combat with an enemy ship.
This implies that some of the surface warships in the sea zone can be elected to “support” the amphibious assault and some can be elected not to. Those supporting would not be able to move in non-combat move like you said.
This seems consistent with the rulebook:
“Moving transports and their cargo into a sea zone from which you plan to make an amphibious assault counts as a combat move, even if there are no defending surface warships there and there is no potential for air units to be scrambled (see “Scramble,” page 15). This is also true of any units that will support the assault. Further, if enemy air units could potentially be scrambled to defend the sea zone, additional units may be moved into the sea zone to combat them in case they are indeed scrambled.”
What’s still unclear is if those surface warships that are elected not to support the amphibious assault are eligible for kamikaze strikes.
One could infer from the kamikaze section that only the ships elected to support the amphibious assault are eligible for kamikaze strikes by this sentence:
“Surface warships that are destroyed by a kamikaze strike (capital ships still take 2 hits) are immediately removed and will not participate in the subsequent battle.”
This implies that any surviving ship does participate in a battle, but we already established that if ships are not supporting the amphibious assault they are not involved in any battle and can move in non-combat movement. So, can we conclude from this that units elected not to be supporting the amphibious assault are not eligible for kamikaze strikes?
In the particular case of our game there happens to be a US aircraft carrier loaded with two UK fighters (i.e. cargo) among other ships in the sea zone. The US would like to avoid the loaded carrier getting kamikazed but has no means of moving it in the combat move phase (not a hostile sea zone, not potentially hostile due to scramble, no other potential sea combats in range)
Do you see any way the amphibious assault can be done in the sea zone without subjecting the loaded aircraft carrier to possible kamikaze strikes?
This implies that some of the surface warships in the sea zone can be elected to “support” the amphibious assault and some can be elected not to. Those supporting would not be able to move in non-combat move like you said.
…
Do you see any way the amphibious assault can be done in the sea zone without subjecting the loaded aircraft carrier to possible kamikaze strikes?
It looks like you misinterpreted Gamerman’s statement. Gamerman simply stated that Kamikaze does not inititate a sea battle. So there was no sea battle at all. So no ship was part of a sea battle. So all ships may move during NCM.
For Kamikaze the question whether ships support an Amphibious Assault or not is irrelevant:
@rulebook:
A kamikaze strike can target any specific enemy surface warship (not a submarine or transport)
belonging to the attacking power.
So if the carrier is already in the Kamikaze zone, maybe as a result of a Noncombat Move prior to the current turn, and you now during Combat Move Phase announced an Amphibious Assault from that seazone, this would trigger a possible Kamikaze strike to any surface warship (of the attacking power) present in that seazone, including the carrier, unless the carrier can do a rules compliant Combat Move to a hostile seazone elsewhere.
@P@nther:
If you can move to escape a combat which might hurt your ships, why can’t you move to escape a Kamikaze which also might hurt your ships?
You can escape but only during Combat Move Phase, provided the seazone is hostile!
In that case you escape combat from a hostile seazone as allowed by the rules, avoiding Kamikaze as a side effect.In the discussed scenario the Kamikaze seazone is friendly. There is no escape from a friendly seazone (also there is no and can’t be combat).
Attacking ships are brought to a Kamikaze seazone for a reason - accepting the risk of Kamikaze.
So if you want to “escape” from that risk, don’t bring surface warships there.
Yes, but it strikes me as a bit unfair.
As for your comment about “escaping” from the risk of Kamikazes by not bringing the ships there, I am referring to the scenario that the ship starts in the sea zone but there was also to be an amphibious assault from that sea zone. Was that unclear?
…
As for your comment about “escaping” from the risk of Kamikazes by not bringing the ships there, I am referring to the scenario that the ship starts in the sea zone but there was also to be an amphibious assault from that sea zone. Was that unclear?
No, pretty clear. But the ships must have been brought to a Kamikaze seazone at any time before. Whenever you bring ships to a Kamikaze seazone they are exposed to that risk, in case any action that triggers a Kamikaze strike will be taken.
Hopefully someone can help me with this, I remember there being a rule that Russia can take control of allied units in Russia, supposed to represent lend lease. Is that just a first edition rule? I can’t seem to find it in the rule book.
There is no lend lease in Global 40.
Hopefully someone can help me with this, I remember there being a rule that Russia can take control of allied units in Russia, supposed to represent lend lease. Is that just a first edition rule? I can’t seem to find it in the rule book.
Sounds like a house rule to me. That could also allow you to collect the Lend Lease NO for SZ125, Archangel and no allied units in USSR.
Hopefully someone can help me with this, I remember there being a rule that Russia can take control of allied units in Russia, supposed to represent lend lease. Is that just a first edition rule? I can’t seem to find it in the rule book.
This is the lend-lease-related rule in Global 2nd ed. (the same in first edition):
@rulebook:
When the Soviet Union Is at War in Europe:
- 5 IPCs if the convoy in sea zone 125 is free of Axis warships, Archangel is controlled by the Soviet Union, and
there are no units belonging to other Allied powers present in any territories originally controlled by the Soviet
Union. Theme: National prestige and access to Allied Lend-Lease material.
Hopefully someone can help me with this, I remember there being a rule that Russia can take control of allied units in Russia, supposed to represent lend lease. Is that just a first edition rule? I can’t seem to find it in the rule book.
What you’re probably thinking about is one one of the optional National Advantages in A&A Revised (2004). The original A&A Europe (1999) also had this rule.
