• Can’t the British BB sail to Queensland Rd1, becoming an important backbone of the Allied navy when trying to advance on Japan? It’s only out of position Rd1, which is why killing it is such a boon. Not to mention you already kill more that 20 IPCs of immediate US units that can’t be back in the fight until Rd 3/4 (collect extra Rd1, spend it Rd2, planes can reach SZ6 Rd3 [although you might not have extra carrier space for them], ships can do something Rd4)

    Also, you talk a lot about the bombard value of Battleships/Cruisers. How often do you find yourself actually using these? You can’t bombard in island trades because they’ll just die to air counterattacks, which is what most of the transports in the Pac are used for.

  • '15

    All of the value calculation aside (which isn’t news), my main apprehension about trading a UK BB for a US CR is the fact that it’s editing the setup of the board. Whether or not it’s more useful is pretty clear: In most every situation, the US cruiser would probably be the better unit on the board for the Allies. (An example situation where it would likely not be would be one of those weird games where the UK does not do Taranto, for instance.) I am loathe to discuss specific houserules on this board.

    And speaking of killing the UK BB not being worth the US making +20 income, have you forgotten the part where you also kill 24 IPCs of mobile American units on the Philippines, one of which is a fighter?

    I clearly assign more practical value to the British BB than you do, and maybe that’s wrong, but here’s some words on that:

    It can suicide into something of Japan’s with ANZAC coming in for a second hit as early as the second round (but usually the 3rd or 4th). If they’re a bit lucky (and they don’t really need to be depending on what you do), this can damage a carrier, putting two planes out of place (or destroy them outright), or kill a transport and strand some ground units, or whatever else. The threat of doing this is enough to alter the aggression level of Japan throughout play. I probably don’t need to mention “fleet in being” to you. I also agree that it’s worth destroying the hell out of that British battleship at horrible UK nominal value:JP nominal value ratios if it means damaging carriers or otherwise weakening the Japanese fleet in a timely fashion when America is showing up. As Japan, removing this variable is, to me, worth the 2/3 chance of losing my cruiser.

    The main problem I’d have of convincing you of the BB’s worth, I think, is the fact that after the first one or two rounds of the game, naming every situation that could arise where the BB (or any other unit for that mater) could possibly be useful is nearly impossible, and nobody would want to write or read a ten page forum post of nested if statements anyway. One example is if your Indian cruiser heads west to hit Ethiopia, then doesn’t immediately turn around (say, to hit Iraq, or to go into the med, or whatever else), the BB can also be necessary on UK 3 to block a J4 hit on Calcutta if you’ve slightly overextended your ground forces in southeast Asia (for what is presumably a good reason).

    As far as the cruiser’s worth to Japan:

    Japan begins play with four boats, and will likely never build another, that can bombard. I rarely, rarely find myself needing more than two of those bombardments in a game, possible exceptions being hitting Calcutta or a US Korea full of slavic meat shields. Or hell, maybe Cairo. Yes, it is a slightly souped up destroyer in addition to this bombardment, I’ll give you that, but I don’t really feel like the loss of this 50% chance to kill one unit on the first round of combat, only when I’m landing 4+ units, to be a big loss. Additionally, and especially because of, Japan’s having enough air power to seal the deal in the first round of the majority of its fights where the bombardment would be most useful is nearly always enough. (One exception is taking two territories 3 spaces off a naval base where planes can’t follow, then you might be able to use all four of your bombarding ships. This is definitely not a common occurrence.)


  • I will be convinced of the value of the UK battleship (or the US dd/sub, for that matter) when I see it used effectively against me. (I’m still not convinced that Allies have reasonable win chances at all.) The only thing I see the J2 giving up in terms of kills is the US fighter. The suicide-the-BB thing seems to me even less effective than it getting a 2/3rds chance to destroy a cruiser. Suiciding ANZAC fleet doesn’t sound like a great idea either… my IJN defensive fleet is always parked at a harbor, so whatever damage they do gets absorbed by bb/ac and repaired (with air replaced onto the carriers as needed) before the US gets to follow up. So between them both suicide attacks will generally need to add up to 5 hits or more before even a sub or destroyer gets removed from the board, and that would require a big sacrifice of material.

    As far as the cruiser goes, I know that as Japan I use that thing every single turn to do something important. It’s not always bombarding, but it does get a lot of shots and it does project a lot of threat. On the topic of bombarding, repeated bombard shots are a great way to whittle down a large stack against an opponent with low income when you can’t take on the whole stack at once. Japan has several situations where this happens - against India, against the Russians if they come, and later on when assaulting Australia for the win. It’s another option I’d rather not forego if I don’t have to, and I don’t perceive that necessity.

    Typical scenario: India with 25ish units on it but only 6 income, throw 2inf 2art at it with 4 amphib shots, on average you’ll score 3 2/3rds hits - just under an even return - with a decent chance to get more, and you don’t risk any more than four units for that roll of the dice. Rolls of the dice that could go very bad for the opponent where it doesn’t really hurt you if it goes bad for you and the odds are reasonable to get the good outcome, those are pure money in a game like this. It’s basically a small strafe with a capped risk, get completely diced and your cost is 14 tops, and you don’t need make stack in Burma to try. Take those chances every time you see them, I say - the bombards give you more of those chances.

    As an aside, this conversation gave me an idea I’m going to try. My expeditionary fleet with Japan is usually bb/cruiser/2ac and escorts. I’m going to try swapping out the 2nd AC for the other bb/cruiser pair to have four amphibious shots in the one group and see if that magnifies the threat even further. Perhaps there is not a lot of fear of two bombard shots from a fleet, but four shots might be a different story.

  • '15

    @Private:

    Took a look at the League board pp 1&2 - bids vary between 12 and 28, averaging 20.5. wittman is offering me 18. Mmm!

    I know I’m a broken record, but 28 is just insane to me.

    Just off the top of my head:

    Ftr in Matla, inf in Alexandria, tank in Egypt, sub in 98, inf in Yunan.  So now Sealion is on without taking any fighters off of London and Libya is gone.  Italy is effectively out of the game before they’ve even had a turn and UK doesn’t have to worry about the Med

    The 1 inf in Yunan isn’t a game changer, but it increases the chance of a bad J1.

    Just because I enjoy coming up with bid scenarios here are a few more for 28:

    • 3 new Russian art, 1 in each of the far east territories (really pushing for that Japan attack), 1 sub 1 ftr in the Med

    • 1 BB 111, 1 DD 110

    • 1 BB 106, 1 DD 91

    • 7 art spread across the Russian territories, or a ftr and 6 inf

    • CV in 101, British subs in 91 and 96

    There’s no shortage of fun ideas, but I stand by what I’ve said before: no idea how the Allies lose more than the occasional game with a bid like that.

  • '15

    I’m a tier 2 player generally, and against players of similar ability, I’ve been winning as Axis against bids approaching 30.

    Honestly, if we wanted to see parity - meaning the top tiers had an equal number of wins as the Axis and the Allies - then we’d see bids in the 40+ range.  Bids are much too low at present, as the records show.


  • When I get Allies I always put 3 of the bid towards an ANZAC inf in New Guinea. The long term payoff on that one is many times the investment.

  • '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @Private:

    Took a look at the League board pp 1&2 - bids vary between 12 and 28, averaging 20.5. wittman is offering me 18. Mmm!

    28 IPCs?!?!?!?!? Someone is smoking some serious dope.

    28 IPCs is enough to deprive both Germany and Japan of an entire turn of progress, or to win the Med outright simply by placing the bid.

    Marsh

  • '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @SubmersedElk:

    When I get Allies I always put 3 of the bid towards an ANZAC inf in New Guinea. The long term payoff on that one is many times the investment.

    My understanding is that typical bidding rules do not allow placement of units where none currently exist. Are you using non-standard bidding rules?

    Marsh

  • '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @Nippon-koku:

    • 1 BB 111, 1 DD 110

    • 1 BB 106, 1 DD 91

    Can you say massive UK landings on the continent on UK3? I knew you could. Why waste time going after the Med when you can be landing on the continent before Germany is even halfway to Moscow?

    @Nippon-koku:

    There’s no shortage of fun ideas, but I stand by what I’ve said before: no idea how the Allies lose more than the occasional game with a bid like that.

    IMO, it would take either phenomenal mismanagement or several consecutive bad rolls on key battles for the Allies to lose with a bid like that.

    Marsh


  • @Marshmallow:

    @SubmersedElk:

    When I get Allies I always put 3 of the bid towards an ANZAC inf in New Guinea. The long term payoff on that one is many times the investment.

    My understanding is that typical bidding rules do not allow placement of units where none currently exist. Are you using non-standard bidding rules?

    Marsh

    My understanding of bidding restrictions is that the country getting the bid has to own the territory, or in the case of sea units has to have a unit present in the SZ, and that no more than one bid unit may be placed per territory. I’ve not had anyone object to the inf in New Guinea.


  • @Marshmallow:

    @Nippon-koku:

    There’s no shortage of fun ideas, but I stand by what I’ve said before: no idea how the Allies lose more than the occasional game with a bid like that.Â

    IMO, it would take either phenomenal mismanagement or several consecutive bad rolls on key battles for the Allies to lose with a bid like that.

    Marsh

    Don’t worry - I am sure I could do it!

  • '15

    @ShadowHAwk:

    Also why not allow more then 1 unit for each zone.

    Too easy at that point, no?

    On a 28 bid the Allies could absolutely stack a spot.  If you’re talking unlimited, how about 9 inf in Yunan?  Japan will never gain control of Asia.

    And, once again, since I love these theoretical bids:

    • 8 inf 1 art in India

    • 4 transports in EUS (like Marsh said: the Allies will be heavily in Europe by turn 3)

    • 2 fighters in Scotland and a DD in 111 (one of those fleets is going untouched)

    • 8 inf 1 art in Paris

    • a ftr and 3 subs in 98

    • and my personal favorite: 7 artillery in Amur

  • '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @Nippon-koku:

    • and my personal favorite: 7 artillery in Amur

    My personal favorite from that list would be Paris – it would transform the whole game, making France all but unconquerable by Germany, and allow the US to focus totally on the Pacific.

    Marsh


  • Nah, they could still take Paris, they would just have to send all their planes at it and leave all the UK navy alone.


  • Surprisingly, 8 inf 1 art in Paris only forces 3 planes into the attack to get 100% in LL–though you have a good chance to lose a plane and not all your tanks will survive. But it only pulls 1 plane from navy attacks if you want to get risky there.

    I’d probably go 2 subs each in 106 and 91, 2fig 2 tac 1 bmb max ground to Paris, and 1 sub 3 fig 3 tac 1 bmb to SZ111 in that situation.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @ColonelCarter:

    Can’t the British BB sail to Queensland Rd1, becoming an important backbone of the Allied navy when trying to advance on Japan? It’s only out of position Rd1, which is why killing it is such a boon. Not to mention you already kill more that 20 IPCs of immediate US units that can’t be back in the fight until Rd 3/4 (collect extra Rd1, spend it Rd2, planes can reach SZ6 Rd3 [although you might not have extra carrier space for them], ships can do something Rd4)

    Also, you talk a lot about the bombard value of Battleships/Cruisers. How often do you find yourself actually using these? You can’t bombard in island trades because they’ll just die to air counterattacks, which is what most of the transports in the Pac are used for.

    I agree. And why didn’t the Philippines and Hawaiian navy sail to Queensland with the land based planes and Hawaiian troops? I thought it was weird that the US Philippines navy stopped at northern territory. Am I missing something?

    In fact, not all the Hawaiian navy is needed to hold Queensland with much of the IJN out of range. But it’s a nice position for them so you might as well unless a better idea presents.

  • '21 '20 '18 '17

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but unless Japan has attacked UK and therefore DoW the USA, American units cannot end their turn in SZ 54.  I like your idea to send the UKBB that way instead of just having it die with the rest of the UK fleet defending SZ 39, but in any event, if J1 DoW, then the American units are likely dead, and if not, they cant end their turns next to ANZAC or UK territory.  Right?    My only point is that getting to move everything and all nations to SZ54, intact and at war, would be rare.

    Another question;

    UK can declare war on Japan at any time,
    but, the ‘tripwire’ of DoW on UK/ANZAC bringing USA into the war if attacked unprovoked is lost
    UK would get its bonus (since it would be intact and whole in every event that it could declare before Japan does)
    but the downside is that USA would not be at war with anyone, and not get its bonuses, until USA4.

    (The old disadvantage is that USA’s +20 bonus for the commencement of war would also be lost, but that is a 1940 Pacific rule only)

    It would appear that this is an bad strategic move, since if UK DoW UK1, Japan could take most or all of UK territory without having to worry about any American attacks or about any substantial American bonuses early on coming into play in the Pacific.


  • @taamvan:

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but unless Japan has attacked UK and therefore DoW the USA, American units cannot end their turn in SZ 54.  I like your idea to send the UKBB that way instead of just having it die with the rest of the UK fleet defending SZ 39, but in any event, if J1 DoW, then the American units are likely dead, and if not, they cant end their turns next to ANZAC or UK territory.   Right?

    US can’t end next to Japanese territories when not at war. Next to ANZAC, UK Pac, Dutch, French, Russian is OK. Planes (EDIT: and ground units) can’t land on these countries’ territories however, because the US is not allied with them yet.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @ColonelCarter:

    Planes can’t land on these countries’ territories however, because the US is not allied with them yet.

    Good point. So the Philippines fighter can only stay in place or go to Guam unless the US carrier moves into range.

  • '19 '17 '16

    Thinking some more about counters to this strategy, could a multi national naval stand off Java work? Sorry, not sure I understand the meaning of the icons in the graphic. But you can have:
    UK BB
    UK Cruiser
    UK DD
    ANZAC DD
    US DD
    US Sub

    Probably not enough against a couple of carriers supported by land based planes and some ships. Is that what is present?

    There is also the option of landing on Java and reinforcing with ANZAC troops and planes. 4 inf and 2 fighters aided by a DD off the coast to prevent a bombardment would at least require two transports to do a landing.

    Just throwing ideas into the air. Please don’t jump on me.

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