No, this post has nothing to do with playing the game differently at Christmas…
Many players have said one turn in Axis and Allies represents about 3 months in the war (there are some problems with that, but just assume for now that it’s true).
So then, each turn corresponds roughly to one season. Global 1940 begins in June 1940, so let’s say turn 1 represents Summer 1940. That means turn 3 is Winter 1940-1941.
Now, in real life, winter caused a lot of problems in the northern Hemisphere. Planes were grounded, ports were closed due to sea ice, and troop advanced stalled due to blizzards.
So, how about every four turns, starting on the third turn, winter sets in. Troop movement is reduced by one for ground units in the northern third of the Global board (for those using printed maps, this would be every territory with at least a part above the top of SZ 103), and sea units in any sea zone touching the top of the board cannot move at all.
This would probably favor the Allies, since it slows down the German advance towards Moscow, but everyone says Axis has the advantage anyways, and this rule affects the Allies too, so I don’t think it will be a problem.
I tried to think of rules for the other seasons, but couldn’t come up with anything good, but if you have an idea please post it.
A few thoughts, in no particular order:
The effects of weather vary depending on location – for example, in North Africa (where winter possibly makes the normally intense heat more temperate) as opposed to Moscow (where winters are very severe).
On the Eastern Front, the case could be made that the worst seasons for movement are actually fall and spring, when the rain and/or melting snow turn the unpaved roads into deep mud. Winter definitely impaired movement by the Germans (especially in 1941, when they were totally unprepared for it), but it had much less effect on the Soviets: their vehicles could operate in extreme cold without freezing (the engines used special lubricant oils, I think), the men were properly dressed and equiped for such weather, and their morale was boosted by a long historical tradition of using the harsh Russian winter to their advantage against invaders.
The notoriously bad winters storms in the North Atlantic made life miserable for the convoy sailors, but they could also make things safer for them because they impaired U-boat operations.
What you’d have to do is research the seasonal climate of each territory on the map, then make a number representing that climate and put it on each territory. Then you would consult a chart to see what the weather would be during the 4 seasons for that number, rolling dice for a probability. Then you would have a weather modifier in place for each battle fought. I’m going to do this eventually - wouldn’t be that hard.
@CWO:
- The effects of weather vary depending on location – for example, in North Africa (where winter possibly makes the normally intense heat more temperate) as opposed to Moscow (where winters are very severe).
I don’t think North African winters would have much of an effect on military operations, at least not what we could show in A&A. That’s why I left it out.
@CWO:
- On the Eastern Front, the case could be made that the worst seasons for movement are actually fall and spring, when the rain and/or melting snow turn the unpaved roads into deep mud. Winter definitely impaired movement by the Germans (especially in 1941, when they were totally unprepared for it), but it had much less effect on the Soviets: their vehicles could operate in extreme cold without freezing (the engines used special lubricant oils, I think), the men were properly dressed and equipped for such weather, and their morale was boosted by a long historical tradition of using the harsh Russian winter to their advantage against invaders.
Good point. Maybe have spring reduce movement for everyone in the northern third of ground territories, and keep winter the same but give Russia immunity?
@CWO:
- The notoriously bad winters storms in the North Atlantic made life miserable for the convoy sailors, but they could also make things safer for them because they impaired U-boat operations.
I didn’t really consider storms, I was thinking that a larger problem would be ice blocking northern ports like Karelia, Archangel, Iceland, and Greenland. Without Icebreakers, convoys and warships could not leave or enter those ports in winter.
@Der:
What you’d have to do is research the seasonal climate of each territory on the map, then make a number representing that climate and put it on each territory. Then you would consult a chart to see what the weather would be during the 4 seasons for that number, rolling dice for a probability. Then you would have a weather modifier in place for each battle fought. I’m going to do this eventually - wouldn’t be that hard.
That sounds like a ton of work and 3 metric tonnes of playtesting.
Not every winter is terrible, so at the beginning of a winter round (R3, R7, R11, etc…), someone should roll a die to see if the winter is going to be bad. If the roll is 1-3, then there is a heavy winter that lasts the entire round. Here is what I think that the winter should do:
Axis units may not make any combat movements (including amphibious assaults) into or through original Russian territories with their ground units. The same applies to Alaska, the Aleutians, and British territory in North America.
Allied units may not make any combat movements (including amphibious assaults) into or through Norway, Finland, Sweden, and Denmark with their ground units.
Air units starting in any of the above mentioned territories are grounded, and they cannot make any kind of movement.
As you can see, winter can be really nasty! At least it only has a one in two chance of happening once every four rounds. :wink:
I live in Norway and after 20 years in a ski troop I got an opinion about winter war. First, if you want a winter rule, you need terrain rules too, because snow and cold have different effects on different terrain.
Lets take Finland, now that is a terrain with forest, lakes, marshes and swamps, making it impassable during summer. Historically correct, most of the campaigns and fighting in Finland from 1600 to WWII have been during winter, when the lakes and marshes are frozen. In Norway it is opposite, because Norway is all mountains, and during winter the mountains are impassable. So if you want a winter rule that is not insane, you will need to make territory specific terrain, and a season rule that effects specific terrain different.
Combat during winter is different from summer. During winter the minefield is covered by snow and wont stop anybody, but since the attacker move slow in snow, the defensive mg-fire makes more impact. Artillery barrage is useless since the shells got buried in the snow. The exception is when the enemy attack over a frozen lake, then artillery barrage will break the ice and the attackers will be drown in the cold water. I will say that the winter favor the defender, since he can sit in a blockhouse or pillbox and keep warm, while the attacker is out in the cold and get frostbite. Statistics show that during winter combat half of the casualties is due to frostbite. During summer combat only a few % come from sickness, and most from battle wounds. The exception is of course the ski troops, that can make long range surprise attacks during winter, but only if the terrain is forest.
Another impact from winter is the higher fuel consumption. A truck that used so much fuel on the German highway during summer, that same truck used seven times more fuel on a Russian dirt road during winter. That is a fact, and some officers at the Academy even claim that was the main reason the German attack on Moscow got bugged down in November 1941, the Germans was out of fuel. Analyses of the Barbarossa battles indicates that the German combat ratios were the same all the time, and that snow and cold did not effect the German combat effectiveness, but the trucks failed to supply the army since they used 7 times more fuel on a Russian dirt road, and the generals had failed to include that in the plans. But since this A&A game don’t have any supply rules, it is hard to model this. But if you make a house rules that says you must pay some IPC for every attack, then let attacks during winter cost twice as much
About Amphibious Assaults, it is true that the D-day landings in Normandy could only be done on that specific day it was actually done, and because of that many wargames have a rule that let invasions be done in summer turn only. But in the real WWI and WWII a lot of Amphibious Assaults, raids and invasions were done both in winter and against mountain terrain, some of them here in Norway, so it would be stupid to make a rule that only allow invasions in summer. In that case you would need special rules for invasion of France.
Another issue is aircrafts. During a blizzard there would of course be no planes in the air, but if the weather is good then winter actually favor aircrafts. First, they can use frozen lakes as airfields and allow for more sorties than during summer when they have to use hard surface airfields. But this is only in territories with marshes and mountains, like Norway and Finland, where there are few corn fields but many lakes. In France and Germany it is opposite. Also it is more difficult to hide from aircrafts during winter, since your tracks in the snow will blow your position, and so will the smoke from your bonfire.
all for now,
The scale of the map is not a good one for terrain effect
Not every winter is terrible, so at the beginning of a winter round (R3, R7, R11, etc…), someone should roll a die to see if the winter is going to be bad. If the roll is 1-3, then there is a heavy winter that lasts the entire round. Here is what I think that the winter should do:
Axis units may not make any combat movements (including amphibious assaults) into or through original Russian territories with their ground units. The same applies to Alaska, the Aleutians, and British territory in North America.
Allied units may not make any combat movements (including amphibious assaults) into or through Norway, Finland, Sweden, and Denmark with their ground units.
Air units starting in any of the above mentioned territories are grounded, and they cannot make any kind of movement.
As you can see, winter can be really nasty! At least it only has a one in two chance of happening once every four rounds. :wink:
What about Germany, France, Poland, Switzerland?
The Battle of the Bulge was fought almost entirely in Belgium, and winter inflicted a devastating toll on Allied forces there.
The territories you listed aren’t the only territories affected.
I agree that maybe not every winter was bad, and a random factor is needed.
Still, one must consider scale, simplicity, and purpose.
On the global scale, terrain is hard to model, as many regions have a wide variety of terrain. More complicated rules are usually more realistic, but harder to implement. Does this HR do anything, or does it exist only to make the game more “realistic”?
I believe that a random roll for territories on the Northern third that limits movement regardless of side is simple, exists to aid the Russians slightly, and while not very realistic is at least slightly more realistic than the OOB game.
Yes, exactly what do the rule say ?
Do winter limit combat move only ? In that case only Tanks will be weak.
Or do the defender get a bonus, like inf defend on a 3 or less during winter, and 2 or less during summer.
Or do winter limit the number of combat rounds ? Like you can only roll for one round of combat during winter, and unlimited rounds for summer ?
…or a combination of all the above ?
Yes, exactly what do the rule say ?
Do winter limit combat move only ? In that case only Tanks will be weak.
Or do the defender get a bonus, like inf defend on a 3 or less during winter, and 2 or less during summer.
Or do winter limit the number of combat rounds ? Like you can only roll for one round of combat during winter, and unlimited rounds for summer ?
…or a combination of all the above ?
I was going with -1 combat move for all ground units. This would mean tanks could still operate, but less effectively, and infantry and artillery would be stuck in place. Perhaps I could also apply this to air units as well, which would be hindered in Winter. Maybe it could even be a reduction of two for air.
Naval units would be stuck completely in SZs touching the top of the board.
I dont sure whit the -1 combat move…In the Ardenne german and Us infantry is not stuck in place… in the soviet counterattack at Moscow soviet infantry is not stuck in place. For me only mechcanized unit and air unit have a possibility of stuck in place.
I dont sure whit the -1 combat move…In the Ardenne german and Us infantry is not stuck in place… in the soviet counterattack at Moscow soviet infantry is not stuck in place. For me only mechcanized unit and air unit have a possibility of stuck in place.
It doesn’t mean the infantry are literally stuck. For example, Moscow is one territory. The Soviet infantry weren’t stuck, but they didn’t leave the area that is in A&A “Russia”. The Ardennes would be “Belgium” on the A&A board. I’m pretty sure the Battle of the Bulge never went outside that rough area (Maybe parts of France, but not all the way to Paris).
So the infantry could still move, but they certainly weren’t blitzing around Europe during the winter. This is reflected by Infantry not moving to other territories (though they can still “move” inside their territory).
I dont sure whit the -1 combat move…In the Ardenne german and Us infantry is not stuck in place… in the soviet counterattack at Moscow soviet infantry is not stuck in place. For me only mechcanized unit and air unit have a possibility of stuck in place.
Are yous suggesting that only Tank and Mechanized Infantry should be reduced to 1 move during winter?
@Baron:
I dont sure whit the -1 combat move…In the Ardenne german and Us infantry is not stuck in place… in the soviet counterattack at Moscow soviet infantry is not stuck in place. For me only mechcanized unit and air unit have a possibility of stuck in place.
Are yous suggesting that only Tank and Mechanized Infantry should be reduced to 1 move during winter?
As I said, winter did not effect the fighting, but winter made it harder to supply the troops. An A&A territory is huge as a country, and an A&A turn is 3 or 4 months. So in this operational scale, winter don’t effect combat much. Also both infantry and tanks used train to travel long distances, and winter don’t effect the railway too much. Actually both inf and tanks should move 2 in non-combat since they are supposed to be on train.
About infantry, this are men walking on feet, nothing can stop them, not mountains, not forest, not snow. French infantry walked from Poland to Moscow and back to Poland again during winter in the 1812 Napoleon campaign. I say that nothing can stop infantry.
Tanks is different, they got stuck in mud and snow. I figure that winter and some types of terrain may deny the tanks abilities, such as blitzing.
Thinking out loud, A&A is supposed to be a simple game, not complex like World in Flames or Gary Grigsbys war. A&A is grand strategy and it would be wrong to introduce too much of tactics at divisional level. To keep it simple I suggest that in winter all land units defend at 3, since winter slightly favors the defender, but most important, it is only one round of land combat in the winter turn, since winter have a bad impact on the supply line.
So end of line, naval and air goes as usual.
Land combat is restricted to one round only, and all land units defend on 3 or less.
No blitzing
@Baron:
I dont sure whit the -1 combat move…In the Ardenne german and Us infantry is not stuck in place… in the soviet counterattack at Moscow soviet infantry is not stuck in place. For me only mechcanized unit and air unit have a possibility of stuck in place.
Are yous suggesting that only Tank and Mechanized Infantry should be reduced to 1 move during winter?
As I said, winter did not effect the fighting, but winter made it harder to supply the troops. An A&A territory is huge as a country, and an A&A turn is 3 or 4 months. So in this operational scale, winter don’t effect combat much. Also both infantry and tanks used train to travel long distances, and winter don’t effect the railway too much. Actually both inf and tanks should move 2 in non-combat since they are supposed to be on train.
About infantry, this are men walking on feet, nothing can stop them, not mountains, not forest, not snow. French infantry walked from Poland to Moscow and back to Poland again during winter in the 1812 Napoleon campaign. I say that nothing can stop infantry.
Tanks is different, they got stuck in mud and snow. I figure that winter and some types of terrain may deny the tanks abilities, such as blitzing.
Thinking out loud, A&A is supposed to be a simple game, not complex like World in Flames or Gary Grigsbys war. A&A is grand strategy and it would be wrong to introduce too much of tactics at divisional level. To keep it simple I suggest that in winter all land units defend at 3, since winter slightly favors the defender, but most important, it is only one round of land combat in the winter turn, since winter have a bad impact on the supply line.
So end of line, naval and air goes as usual.
Land combat is restricted to one round only, and all land units defend on 3 or less.
No blitzing
“About infantry, this are men walking on feet, nothing can stop them, not mountains, not forest, not snow. French infantry walked from Poland to Moscow and back to Poland again during winter in the 1812 Napoleon campaign. I say that nothing can stop infantry.”
They also died in droves because of it. Death certainly stops infantry. I believe Napoleon lost over 90% of his men due to winter in that campaign. Maybe make so if you move infantry, roll a d6 for each one, on a 6 they survive. Remove all other infantry.
I’m a bit confused… you say winter doesn’t effect combat that much, but then make drastic changes to combat. I think combat should be left alone, and only effect movement (which relates to supply lines. Can’t advance if you have no fuel).
A little rules for winter, if a player attack a territory with 4 infantry 2 tank and one tactical bomber, roll every motorizeds units (mech infantry, tank and planes) in this exemple 2 tank and the tactical bomber, if i got 2 or less the unit dont move on the attack. Is simple and got a malus to attack and bonus to def.
I’m a bit confused… you say winter doesn’t effect combat that much, but then make drastic changes to combat. I think combat should be left alone, and only effect movement (which relates to supply lines. Can’t advance if you have no fuel).
I totally agree, lets keep it simple. I would say all land units move 1 space only during winter turn. That would be close to the real thing.
A little rules for winter, if a player attack a territory with 4 infantry 2 tank and one tactical bomber, roll every motorizeds units (mech infantry, tank and planes) in this exemple 2 tank and the tactical bomber, if i got 2 or less the unit dont move on the attack. Is simple and got a malus to attack and bonus to def.
Nice thinking out of the box, and feel free to use it in your basement, but I don’t like it. First, aircrafts don’t mind if its winter or summer, they don’t fly in bad weather period. More flights were aborted during summer because of common rain, than in winter because of some rare blizzard. Second, I don’t like to roll for movement. I roll for combat, that’s it. Its better to let all land units move 1 space only during winter, that makes sense and is a simple rule, we are playing A&A not WiF or Gary Grigsbys war.
Nice thinking out of the box, and feel free to use it in your basement, but I don’t like it. First, aircrafts don’t mind if its winter or summer, they don’t fly in bad weather period. More flights were aborted during summer because of common rain, than in winter because of some rare blizzard. Second, I don’t like to roll for movement. I roll for combat, that’s it. Its better to let all land units move 1 space only during winter, that makes sense and is a simple rule, we are playing A&A not WiF or Gary Grigsbys war.
Yes, only move 1 space in combat and non combat.
