[House Rules] Tactical Bombers and their use

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

A tactical bomber or any bomber of WWII is only as good as it’s air cover. The only reason any bomber of WWII was able to inflict maximum damage/firepower was because of ability to dominate airspace over enemy territory, either through air superiority or absence of sufficient defensive air-cover on the part of the defender.

TBs and StBs rely on the ability to bomb/attack at will. That will is only provided by the absence or inferior defensive measures of fighter aircraft on the part of the defender. Fighter aircraft are the essential key of air superiority. Bomber aircraft are strong because of their ability to attack ground targets from above, if they are harassed in the air, than they cannot be effective against ground targets. Hence the fighter, the defender of the airspace, can hamper the effectiveness of ground attack aircraft because any bomber is easily bested in any air-to-air combat, because their primary job is to harass ground targets not to dogfight with or against aircraft to whose primary job is to destroy other aircraft whether they are bombers of any type or fighter aircraft.

It seems that main planes in WWII Naval warfare was the TcB.

Hence, the Classic Fighter A3D4 which was put on board carrier unit and was able to destroy many costlier warships seems to be mostly an historical TcB of somekind, fighter unable to carry bombs were not the majority of Carrier Air Group 1 fourth to 1 third of all planes,(at the end of WWII, it was a Fg-bomber F4U-Corsair which was the main planes on carriers):

Typical air group composition aboard the Yorktown Class carriers, at the beginning of World War II, consisted of approximately 72 aircraft:

1 fighter squadron (VF) composed of 18 Grumman F4F Wildcats
  1 bombing squadron (VB) composed of 18 Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bombers
   1 scouting squadron (VS) composed of 18 Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bombers
   1 torpedo squadron (VT) composed of 18 Douglas TBD Devastator, TBF or TBM torpedo bombers
During the course of the war in the Pacific the compositions of the air groups changed drastically. The scouting squadrons were disestablished by early 1943 and the number of fighter planes was increased continuously. Typically in 1943 an Essex class carrier carried 36 fighter planes, 36 bombers and 18 torpedo planes.

In addition, as I said earlier, it was the TcB which can go to the kill against a submarine, not a Fighters. So at a zoom out scale with a lot of different units interaction it seems to me that TcBs was the most useful plane. And the most able to inflict damage.

For example,  TBF Avenger torpedo-bomber was the ASW which provides cover for carriers in Pacific and Atlantic giving:

Besides the traditional surface role (torpedoing surface ships), Avengers claimed about 30 submarine kills, including the cargo submarine I-52. They were one of the most effective sub-killers in the Pacific theatre, as well as in the Atlantic, when escort carriers were finally available to escort Allied convoys. There, the Avengers contributed to the warding off of German U-Boats while providing air cover for the convoys.

So, when talking about A/D value it seems that only bombers can deliver the @4. Whether on offence or on defence situation.
Based on this I see at least a TcB unit as A3-4D3-4 on most of the A&A situation which rarely get to a real planes vs planes combat.

It is only in air-to-air defense which Fgs provides the superiority.

And as the Midway battle shows up, even without air-cover escorting Fgs, TacB (dive-bombers) were able to take down big targets.

So the main historical attribute of Fg is to give a bonus to TcB in combat situation.
Fg A3D3 giving +1 A/D when paired 1:1 to TcB.

And the main historical attribute of TcB is to receive this bonus at least on offence (OOB), which somehow depicted, at a tactical combat level bonus of this strategical game, the historical impact of having some escorted TcBs air-squadrons by Fighters in many missions:
TcB A3-4D3-4 get +1 A/D when paired 1:1 to Fg unit.

It is only in SBR which Fgs advantage should have been clear.
At least, you cannot use a TcB unit to protect IC, NB or AB.
Only Fgs can take off, but on offence all planes get to roll A1 vs the defending Fgs.

So, by elimination, since the game have no evident spot to rightly create an accurate place to an Air Supremacy unit, and since the name Strat or Tac “bombers” have a large symbolic “attacking” echo, hence give the best defense D@4 to the counter-part of TcB plane unit in the game.

As a matter of fact, there is some room to increase the place of a defensive Fgs put on Light Carriers for the defensive covers of Fleet Carriers while their own planes were on mission further away:

Each fast carrier was assigned an air group of two to four squadrons.  Heavy carriers accommodated approximately 100 aircraft while light carriers accommodated approximately 33.  After the navys TBD squadrons were decimated at Midway the TBF/TBM Avenger became the standard torpedo bomber on U.S. carriers.  A heavy carrier air group had between 12-18 Avengers and a light carrier air group had 9 Avengers.

The SBD was the standard dive bomber for the first half of the war and was replaced by the SB2C in 1944.  In 1943 a heavy group had 36 SBD and a light carrier group had 9 SBD.  **As fighters became more capable and the kamikaze threat emerged fighters were substituted for dive bombers so that by the end of the war the standard bomber complement of a heavy group was 15 SB2C and 15 TBM.  **

The F4F was the standard carrier fighter in 1942.  It was replaced by the F6F in 1943 which in turn was supplemented by the F4U in 1945.  The number of fighters on heavy carriers grew from 18 at the beginning of 1942 to 73 in 1945.  The fighter complement on light carriers grew from 12 in 1943 to 24 in 1945.  For Olympic, heavy carrier fighter complements were to be reduced to 56 and light carrier groups would contain only fighters.  The planned light carrier complement initially was three dozen F6Fs or F4Us with the ultimate goal of four dozen of the smaller F8Fs.  F8F equipped air groups were in the pipeline to the Western Pacific as the war ended.

http://alliedairforces.com/Fast Carriers/default.htm

See this post below:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33181.msg1268236#msg1268236

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

Okay, I think I see Baron’s problem with the attack/defense values of fighters, tac bombers and strat bombers in relation to the difference between air to air combat versus air units attacking ground targets. Yeah, if you look at one unit versus one other unit, perhaps the attack/defense values may not make as much sense in some cases. For example, a tac bomber or strat bomber attacking @ 4 against a fighter defending @ 4 does seem kind of ludicrous. Of course it seems equally ludicrous to think of an infantry defending @ 2 taking out a strategic bomber.
The problem is Axis & Allies had to provide a general attack and defense system to make the game playable and somewhat simple. To say unit A can attack unit B at this value but it can attack unit C at a different value and so on would simply make the combat too complicated and probably scare away all but the most hard core gamers.
Also, I’ve got to say increasing a tac bomber’s defense to 4 and lowering a fighter’s defense to 3 is just silliness. That is not the way to fix your problem, at least not with just general combat situations.
I think the best way to address air to air versus air to ground combat would be to have two separate combat phases (only if both sides have aircraft in the battle). First, you have a special air to air combat phase. Since fighters are definitely the superior craft in strictly air to air combat, perhaps they should attack and defend @ 4, tac bombers perhaps 2 or 3 because they do have some dogfighting ability, just not the same as fighters. Strategic bombers would be low, perhaps attack @ 1 or 0, defend @ 1 or 2. This air to air combat phase would continue until one side or the other has NO planes left.

Then, when the air to air combat phase is complete, then you go to the main battle. In this case, I could see fighters only attacking and defending @ 3 while tac bombers would attack @ defend @ 4. In fact, I would say that even defending strategic bombers could defend @ 4 because they would be defending the territory by flying over the attacking ground forces and bombing them from above (remember, at this point there would be NO attacking aircraft to pester the bombers).
In a case where it is aircraft vs. ground units, attacking or defending fighters would be less effective against ground targets than tac bombers or strat bombers so I could see changing their values now.
Another thing I have considered is the possibility of catching enemy aircraft on the ground. In a lot of the early blitzkrieg battles, one reason the Germans were so successful was that the Luftwaffe managed to strike at many enemy airfields thus eliminating effective air defense from their victims. The US was pretty successful at this as well in several of the later battles of the Pacific war (Philippines, Okinawa, New Guinea).
So, I was wondering if there were some way to incorporate that aspect into this game. Like if you attack an enemy territory that has aircraft, and you are attacking with aircraft, roll a die and if you get a “1”, you catch your enemy off guard and destroy their planes on the ground. A roll of 2-6 would accomplish nothing.
Would this be a good idea? Or too overpowering?

Without talking directly on a topic about HR development, I could say that you describe many aspects which I consider about the game or the historical aspect. I bolded them.
When it covers some HR dimension, I just see it as an illustration of where it could have go, having much time to think about. And now, there is also the 1914 A&A mechanics which can give other kind of Larry Harris endorsement rules mechanisms.

For now, I’m mostly concerned about the way “we see offence and defence” for air units, and specifically TcB, at a strategical games which is not intended to be a total war simulation of WWII.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Razor:

@Baron:

The usual situation of casualty picking in A&A is aircrafts hitting ground targets, hence a Stuka is far more effective than a Spitfire to destroy a tank. And I should add that a Helldiver TcB is far better than a Hellcat Fgt to destroy a IJN Musashi Battleship.

Even if your facts are correct, and I agree with you most of the time, the trick will be to make a HR that is so smooth, elegant and simple, that the casual A&A player that happens to be in your basement, agree to play by it, and not the lame OOB rulebook.

Combat in the real world seems to have some kind of sequenced fire phases, where specialized weapon systems can target specific units, and kill them before they can return fire. A Battleship have big long range guns, and can sink a Cruiser before it reach the range to shoot back. The artillery barrage loop shells into the infantry trench, and there is no way the infantry can kill that artillery. Heavy Bombers can carpet bomb infantry from high altitude and the infantry have no way to defend against it.

But then it will not longer be A&A

You are describing tactical situations which need to be translated somehow in a Strategical game.
I agree on this:
“the trick will be to make a HR that is so smooth, elegant and simple, that the casual A&A player that happens to be in your basement, agree to play by it, and not the lame OOB rulebook.”

It is not an easy task, very often as I revised some old ideas I saw easily how far I am from it.
But, sometimes a simpler solution arise. And I’m the most happy man because of the simplest joy of the discovery.  :-D

[baron Münchhausen]

And now, there is also the 1914 A&A mechanics which can give other kind of Larry Harris endorsement rules mechanisms.

About this 1914 mechanisms, just an example,
1 Fg could be a unit A3D3M4 which can
provides an upgrade +1 A/D to Artillery or Destroyer when paired 1:1 or
+1 A/D to all Art in a territory/DD units in a SZ, if having an Air Supremacy (no plane on the other side).
Or an Air Superiority bonus : having more Fgs on one side (since the game mechanics do not allow direct hit from air to air when there is still ground units)

Hence, giving it a scout and patrol ability.
So, in itself Fg units with a cannon and machine guns on wings it is not more dangerous than a flying Tank but could provide a real advantage to his side.

I’m not discussing HR, I’m just showing some new direction which can be provided inside 1914, rules mechanics.

[baron Münchhausen]

@CWO:

At Midway, the American torpedo bombers were slaughtered by the defending Zeros, and the late-arriving American dive-bombers were greatly helped in striking their targets successfully by the fact that the Zeros had been pulled down from their combat air patrol stations by going after the early-arriving enemy torpedo bombers, thus leaving the carriers with no fighter cover.

Does this tactical situation is sufficiently iconic to justify the defensive combat value of Fg units?

It is true that a part of the Fgs in Carrier Air Group (CAG) from the fleet carrier or other carriers in the Task Force was most of the time in the air for close protection of carriers naval group.

But someone can rationalize it as a Defensive roll of carrier A0D2.
The patrolling CAG is an intrinsic part of the defensive combat value.

If we forget about the fact, that on strategical level, it was a Japanese offensive and considered it on the reverse side as a USA military attack in a SZ nearby Midway SZ.

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

@Razor:

@Baron:

The usual situation of casualty picking in A&A is aircrafts hitting ground targets, hence a Stuka is far more effective than a Spitfire to destroy a tank. And I should add that a Helldiver TcB is far better than a Hellcat Fgt to destroy a IJN Musashi Battleship.

Even if your facts are correct, and I agree with you most of the time, the trick will be to make a HR that is so smooth, elegant and simple, that the casual A&A player that happens to be in your basement, agree to play by it, and not the lame OOB rulebook.

Combat in the real world seems to have some kind of sequenced fire phases, where specialized weapon systems can target specific units, and kill them before they can return fire. A Battleship have big long range guns, and can sink a Cruiser before it reach the range to shoot back. The artillery barrage loop shells into the infantry trench, and there is no way the infantry can kill that artillery. Heavy Bombers can carpet bomb infantry from high altitude and the infantry have no way to defend against it.

But then it will not longer be A&A

You are describing tactical situations which need to be translated somehow in a Strategical game.
I agree on this:
“the trick will be to make a HR that is so smooth, elegant and simple, that the casual A&A player that happens to be in your basement, agree to play by it, and not the lame OOB rulebook.”

It is not an easy task, very often as I revised some old ideas I saw easily how far I am from it.
But, sometimes a simpler solution arise. And I’m the most happy man because of the simplest joy of the discovery.  :-D

That is easily done if you leave the stats OOB, except allow TBs to defend at +1 when paired with a fighter. You could even do this with the StB if you really wanted to.

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

@CWO:

At Midway, the American torpedo bombers were slaughtered by the defending Zeros, and the late-arriving American dive-bombers were greatly helped in striking their targets successfully by the fact that the Zeros had been pulled down from their combat air patrol stations by going after the early-arriving enemy torpedo bombers, thus leaving the carriers with no fighter cover.

But, in Midway, I see the IJN on offense and the USN on defense.

In game terms, it means that Japanese Fighters are A3 and US TcB D3 also.
Same combat level.

Let’s suppose instead it was US Fgs which have found the carriers what have had happened?
The carriers would have been machine gun crippled, then Japanese Fgs would have come back and fight an air-to-air dogfight vs Wildcats.

I this situation, any TcBs units is more able to inflict bigger damage to naval units than any Fgs.

Hence why, I rather prefer a TcB A3-4D4 to depict air-to-naval combat at a strategical level.

I know, it is not over, you will probably have a different way of depicting this situation.

That’s what I’m hoping for.

I was just trying to show how grounds and naval military targets should be taken in account to describe the combat values of Fgs and TcBs and how they get an impact at a strategical level.

You could consider the US on offense as well. The US cracked the Japanese codes thus knowing they were planning an attack and essentially set up an ambush.

[toblerone77]

@knp7765:

Okay, I think I see Baron’s problem with the attack/defense values of fighters, tac bombers and strat bombers in relation to the difference between air to air combat versus air units attacking ground targets. Yeah, if you look at one unit versus one other unit, perhaps the attack/defense values may not make as much sense in some cases. For example, a tac bomber or strat bomber attacking @ 4 against a fighter defending @ 4 does seem kind of ludicrous. Of course it seems equally ludicrous to think of an infantry defending @ 2 taking out a strategic bomber.
The problem is Axis & Allies had to provide a general attack and defense system to make the game playable and somewhat simple. To say unit A can attack unit B at this value but it can attack unit C at a different value and so on would simply make the combat too complicated and probably scare away all but the most hard core gamers.
Also, I’ve got to say increasing a tac bomber’s defense to 4 and lowering a fighter’s defense to 3 is just silliness. That is not the way to fix your problem, at least not with just general combat situations.
I think the best way to address air to air versus air to ground combat would be to have two separate combat phases (only if both sides have aircraft in the battle). First, you have a special air to air combat phase. Since fighters are definitely the superior craft in strictly air to air combat, perhaps they should attack and defend @ 4, tac bombers perhaps 2 or 3 because they do have some dogfighting ability, just not the same as fighters. Strategic bombers would be low, perhaps attack @ 1 or 0, defend @ 1 or 2. This air to air combat phase would continue until one side or the other has NO planes left.
Then, when the air to air combat phase is complete, then you go to the main battle. In this case, I could see fighters only attacking and defending @ 3 while tac bombers would attack @ defend @ 4. In fact, I would say that even defending strategic bombers could defend @ 4 because they would be defending the territory by flying over the attacking ground forces and bombing them from above (remember, at this point there would be NO attacking aircraft to pester the bombers).
In a case where it is aircraft vs. ground units, attacking or defending fighters would be less effective against ground targets than tac bombers or strat bombers so I could see changing their values now.
Another thing I have considered is the possibility of catching enemy aircraft on the ground. In a lot of the early blitzkrieg battles, one reason the Germans were so successful was that the Luftwaffe managed to strike at many enemy airfields thus eliminating effective air defense from their victims. The US was pretty successful at this as well in several of the later battles of the Pacific war (Philippines, Okinawa, New Guinea).
So, I was wondering if there were some way to incorporate that aspect into this game. Like if you attack an enemy territory that has aircraft, and you are attacking with aircraft, roll a die and if you get a “1”, you catch your enemy off guard and destroy their planes on the ground. A roll of 2-6 would accomplish nothing.
Would this be a good idea? Or too overpowering?

I get the line of thought also knp. As I see the discussion the TB is almost being given preferential treatment vs. other units by essentially considering it “always on offense” in this line of thought you may as well consider both sides as “always on offense”.

It’s true you can’t simply judge a sculpt by saying “Oh that’s a Stuka and that’s an SBD” There’s many different types but they all have the same concept and job in battle. The general idea and overall concept of the TB is that it is designed to attack specific surface targets with relative precision.

I’m not a fan of the 1914 air superiority mechanic being used in G40 as is. However I believe that if someone wanted you could adapt it. The whole concept of 1914 vastly different from all other editions and the air superiority concept is also very integrated with ground units so you would need to consider those factors as well.

I think the discussion of TBs defending at such a high defense value is giving them their cake and eating it too.

As for your idea on the air battle phase, I like it and have been thinking about similar ideas. Yours is different but I like the way it’s simplistic and pretty balanced.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

You could consider the US on offense as well. The US cracked the Japanese codes thus knowing they were planning an attack and essentially set up an ambush.

Yep. Done that here:
@Baron:

@CWO:

At Midway, the American torpedo bombers were slaughtered by the defending Zeros, and the late-arriving American dive-bombers were greatly helped in striking their targets successfully by the fact that the Zeros had been pulled down from their combat air patrol stations by going after the early-arriving enemy torpedo bombers, thus leaving the carriers with no fighter cover.

Does this tactical situation is sufficiently iconic to justify the defensive combat value of Fg units?

It is true that a part of the Fgs in Carrier Air Group (CAG) from the fleet carrier or other carriers in the Task Force was most of the time in the air for close protection of carriers naval group.

But someone can rationalize it as a Defensive roll of carrier A0D2.
The patrolling CAG is an intrinsic part of the defensive combat value.

If we forget about the fact, that on strategical level, it was a Japanese offensive and considered it on the reverse side as a USA military attack in a SZ nearby Midway SZ.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

I get the line of thought also knp. As I see the discussion the TB is almost being given preferential treatment vs. other units by essentially considering it “always on offense” in this line of thought you may as well consider both sides as “always on offense”.

It’s true you can’t simply judge a sculpt by saying “Oh that’s a Stuka and that’s an SBD” There’s many different types but they all have the same concept and job in battle. The general idea and overall concept of the TB is that it is designed to attack specific surface targets with relative precision.

I’m not a fan of the 1914 air superiority mechanic being used in G40 as is. However I believe that if someone wanted you could adapt it. The whole concept of 1914 vastly different from all other editions and the air superiority concept is also very integrated with ground units so you would need to consider those factors as well.

I think the discussion of TBs defending at such a high defense value is giving them their cake and eating it too.

As for your idea on the air battle phase, I like it and have been thinking about similar ideas. Yours is different but I like the way it’s simplistic and pretty balanced.

There is probably some truth in this, having a blind-angle at considering TcB in offensive tactical combat situation.

Then what could be a situation where TcBs are on defense?

About the Tac getting something like a basic A3-4D4M4C11 or A3-4D3-4M4C11,
the first idea was mainly to make a permutation of combat value.
Because of the game mechanics which provides a lot of ground casualties to defending planes before reaching any air-to-air vs incoming enemy.

For the sake of the argument, let’s think about a Sea-Lion situation.
The lasts cycles may left defending side with Fgs only while the attacker will keep a Tank and starting losing some planes.
Going all-out and willing to sacrifice planes, it will be a lot of paired TcB-Fg to take as casualties.

1TcB A4+ 1 Fg A3 vs 2 Fgs D4. (Or 2 TcBs D4).
In that rare situation, (because it is a main combat over Capital and an IC territory) it seems weird that defending TcBs could really do a great job on defense.
It will imply dropping bombs on the last attacking Tank division (since their is no landing fields in UK for Luftwaffe) while taking Germans Fgs as casualties.
I agree here it is a weirdo case when Fgs must have the upper hand.

However this rare situation appears mostly as the climatic exception of combat over IC ttry or Capitol ttry.

The rest of the time, as I tried to show, the mechanics is always putting cheaper ground units as casualties for the hits got by Fg and TcB.

However, it reveals that we put Air Interdiction over homeland territory as the symbolic paradigm which emphasis the most important defensive aspect of warfare.

Hence giving Fg D4 and having fantasy dreams of a big A&A air-to-air battle over a ttry, which a rather exceptional in regular combat and is neither accurate in G40 SBR.

Is there a way to recreate better accurate A&A combat interaction for TcB and Fg?

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

@toblerone77:

I get the line of thought also knp. As I see the discussion the TB is almost being given preferential treatment vs. other units by essentially considering it “always on offense” in this line of thought you may as well consider both sides as “always on offense”.

It’s true you can’t simply judge a sculpt by saying “Oh that’s a Stuka and that’s an SBD” There’s many different types but they all have the same concept and job in battle. The general idea and overall concept of the TB is that it is designed to attack specific surface targets with relative precision.

I’m not a fan of the 1914 air superiority mechanic being used in G40 as is. However I believe that if someone wanted you could adapt it. The whole concept of 1914 vastly different from all other editions and the air superiority concept is also very integrated with ground units so you would need to consider those factors as well.

I think the discussion of TBs defending at such a high defense value is giving them their cake and eating it too.

As for your idea on the air battle phase, I like it and have been thinking about similar ideas. Yours is different but I like the way it’s simplistic and pretty balanced.

There is probably some truth in this, having a blind-angle at considering TcB in offensive tactical combat situation.

Then what could be a situation where TcBs are on defense? It’s just my opinion but the OOB stats already reflect much of what you’re trying to create by raising the defense stats based upon the idea that TBs are attacking ground targets. If it were purely based on the concept of what a TB does, the conclusion would result in an even lower defensive stat at 1 or 2. The TB is purely an offensive weapon just like the StB. So basically the TB with a defense of 3 already reflects a strategic level of defense. The fighter’s offensive power is also an accurate depiction at A3 of the strategic level.

About the Tac getting something like a basic A3-4D4M4C11 or A3-4D3-4M4C11,
the first idea was mainly to make a permutation of combat value.
Because of the game mechanics which provides a lot of ground casualties to defending planes before reaching any air-to-air vs incoming enemy.

For the sake of the argument, let’s think about a Sea-Lion situation.
The lasts cycles may left defending side with Fgs only while the attacker will keep a Tank and starting losing some planes.
Going all-out and willing to sacrifice planes, it will be a lot of paired TcB-Fg to take as casualties.

1TcB A4+ 1 Fg A3 vs 2 Fgs D4. (Or 2 TcBs D4).
In that rare situation, (because it is a main combat over Capital and an IC territory) it seems weird that defending TcBs could really do a great job on defense.
It will imply dropping bombs on the last attacking Tank division (since their is no landing fields in UK for Luftwaffe) while taking Germans Fgs as casualties.
I agree here it is a weirdo case when Fgs must have the upper hand.

However this rare situation appears mostly as the climatic exception of combat over IC ttry or Capitol ttry.

The rest of the time, as I tried to show, the mechanics is always putting cheaper ground units as casualties for the hits got by Fg and TcB. Unless you’re going to create a complicated system of how combat and casualty allotment is conducted it’s going to be difficult to ever get away from this mechanic. It’s just the way Axis & Allies is played. The more realism you go for the more you would weaken the TB in any case.

However, it reveals that we put Air Interdiction over homeland territory as the symbolic paradigm which emphasis the most important defensive aspect of warfare.

Hence giving Fg D4 and having fantasy dreams of a big A&A air-to-air battle over a ttry, which a rather exceptional in regular combat and is neither accurate in G40 SBR.

Is there a way to recreate better accurate A&A combat interaction for TcB and Fg? By giving the TB bonuses to attack defense when accompanied by fighters, you simulate the optimum air cover for TBs to operate. The Battle of the Bulge and Germany’s campaign against Russia are excellent examples of how air cover is essential for a successful ground campaign. TBs just can’t do it alone. Just like a naval vessel needs escorts.

[baron Münchhausen]

That is easily done if you leave the stats OOB, except allow TBs to defend at +1 when paired with a fighter. You could even do this with the StB if you really wanted to.

Are you saying Fg paired 1:1 give +1 A/D to TcB or StB on defense?

Making it a StB A4D1-2M6C12?

This bonus is interesting for StB but what StB are doing in defense is much like carpet bombing his home territory, which is not surgical strike bombing and can have some collateral damage.
Hence we can manage to rationalize the D1 of StB.

But, at least, it is a way to depict the escorting role of Fg by giving a pairing bonus.

As mentioned, an Air phase prior to regular combat can be a way to give a better role to this Air superiority units.

Can we not imagine some kind of game mechanics which can emphasized putting Fg in frontiers territories to be more often part of a defensive pattern in which air interdiction can have some interest or incentive?

Thinking out loud:

I saw some extended defense zone with AB in which Fgs only can scramble in adjacent land territory, not just SZ (scrambling in SZ stay allowed for TcB also).

Air Superiority bonus: having more Fgs on one side, or
Air Supremacy: no Fg on the other side,

• allows somekind of Artillery upgrade (as in 1914):
  D+1 for 1 Art unit if Air Superiority / or D+1 for all Art units, if Air Supremacy.

Air Supremacy could:

• allow each Fg to reduced on a 1:1 basis 1 enemy’s plane Attack value.
  Such 2 TcB+2 Tk getting 2A4+ 2A3 but 2 Fgs reduced attacking TcB to 2A3.
  1 StB A4 and 1 TcB A3 could be lower down by 2 Fgs to 1StB A3 + 1 TcB A2.

This can be different ways to give Fgs this defensive Air Cover for ground units, without having to HR a dogfight phase (in a game which set-up and cost wasn’t intended to do more direct casualties to planes unit) : just the sheer number and the presence/absence of Fgs could give some modifiers.

[baron Münchhausen]

Then what could be a situation where TcBs are on defense?

It’s just my opinion but the OOB stats already reflect much of what you’re trying to create by raising the defense stats based upon the idea that TBs are attacking ground targets. If it were purely based on the concept of what a TB does, the conclusion would result in an even lower defensive stat at 1 or 2. The TB is purely an offensive weapon just like the StB. So basically the TB with a defense of 3 already reflects a strategic level of defense. The fighter’s offensive power is also an accurate depiction at A3 of the strategic level.

I was talking about an historical situation in which we can consider TacB in defense mode, not in the board game.
For example, TcB Avenger Air Patrol against Subs around an Escort Carrier can be seen as defensive stance.
In this historical situation they were far better than Fighters against Subs.
So it would be TcB which should get D4 not the Fg in ASW.

Is there a way to recreate better accurate A&A combat interaction for TcB and Fg?
By giving the TB bonuses to attack defense when accompanied by fighters, you simulate the optimum air cover for TBs to operate. The Battle of the Bulge and Germany’s campaign against Russia are excellent examples of how air cover is essential for a successful ground campaign. TBs just can’t do it alone. Just like a naval vessel needs escorts.

I agree your suggestion is an interesting addition, to promote something which depicts the escorting role of Fgs: TcB A3-4D3-4M4

Or just simply rise TcB defense to D4 when they have Air Supremacy, no need of Fg pairing.
It will represent the home-land defending advantage. No enemy’s Fg, then D4 upgrade against ground units for TcB.
In counter-part, it creates an incentive to throw attacking Fgs in the battle to reduce this TcB bonus.

So, coming back to this Subs only attacking fleet vs Escort carrier, DD and some APs, at least Fg and TcB would have the same Defense @4.

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

That is easily done if you leave the stats OOB, except allow TBs to defend at +1 when paired with a fighter. You could even do this with the StB if you really wanted to.

Are you saying Fg paired 1:1 give +1 A/D to TcB or StB on defense? I see it as either or +1 Attack to StB could be too much. I see the +1 for TBs when paired fighters as a reasonable way to reflect the ideas posters have stated

Making it a StB A4D1-2M6C12? As I said it could be a bit much.

This bonus is interesting for StB but what StB are doing in defense is much like carpet bombing is home territory, which is not surgical strike bombing and can have some collateral damage.
Hence we can manage to rationalize the D1 of StB. Agreed. The idea is just for fun. Someone may want to do this based on the bonus to TBs.

But, at least, it is a way to depict the escorting role of Fg by giving a pairing bonus.

As mentioned, an Air phase prior to regular combat can be a way to give a better role to this Air superiority units.

Can we not imagine some kind of game mechanics which can emphasized putting Fg in frontiers territories to be more often part of a defensive pattern in which air interdiction can have some interest or incentive?

Thinking out loud:

I saw some extended defense zone with AB in which Fgs only can scramble in adjacent land territory, not just SZ (scrambling in SZ stay allowed for TcB also).

Air Superiority bonus: having more Fgs on one side, or
Air Supremacy: no Fg on the other side,

• allows somekind of Artillery upgrade (as in 1914):
  D+1 for 1 Art unit if Air Superiority / or D+1 for all Art units, if Air Supremacy.

Air Supremacy could:

• allow each Fg to reduced on a 1:1 basis 1 enemy’s plane Attack value.
  Such 2 TcB+2 Tk getting 2A4+ 2A3 but 2 Fgs reduced attacking TcB to 2A3.
  1 StB A4 and 1 TcB A3 could be lower down by 2 Fgs to 1StB A3 + A TcB A2.
   
  This can be different ways to give Fgs this defensive Air Cover for ground units, without having to HR a dogfight phase (in a game which set-up and cost wasn’t intended to do more direct casualties to planes unit) : just the sheer number and the presence/absence of Fgs could give some modifiers.

[baron Münchhausen]

I forget to add this, to better depict Fg as Air Superiority unit:
Give something to both escorting and defending Fgs in SBR so they can be better than StB and TcB.

Actual OOB put them all on the same attack level.

I already provided something, not too complicated, in HR for Fgs during SBR.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33210.msg1260829#msg1260829

[toblerone77]

The biggest problem I have is giving the TB a large defensive boost of 4 without some kind of caveat. It feels like giving subs or carriers an amphibious bombardment. I’d rather give a TB A3/D3/M4/C8 (no bonuses) if we’re going to view it as a “flying tank/submarine” which seems more like the over all concept of TBs as depicted in the game.

I would even go as far as keeping OOB cost remaining the same but allowing TBs a first strike against armor and subs. Possibly limiting this to the first round only. And/or allowing TBs to hit subs without a DD.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

The biggest problem I have is giving the TB a large defensive boost of 4 without some kind of caveat. It feels like giving subs or carriers an amphibious bombardment.

I’d rather give a TB A3/D3/M4/C8 (no bonuses) if we’re going to view it as a “flying tank/submarine” which seems more like the over all concept of TBs as depicted in the game.

I would even go as far as keeping OOB cost remaining the same but allowing TBs a first strike against armor and subs.

Possibly limiting this to the first round only. And/or allowing TBs to hit subs without a DD.

Some interesting ways to develop a distinctive capacities for TcBs.
The capacity to hit subs vs Fgs should be examin closer.

I think I finally find a solution to give both Fgs and TcBs their own capacities:
Fighter being smaller, faster, cheaper, but weaker against ground target but always have the better hand in dogfight against any bombers (TcB or StB).
TcB being a bigger, slower, costlier and heavier hitter against ground targets but clumsier against Fg in air-to-air combat.
In addition, attacking Fgs should be less effective than defending ones.
And this principle, I think, should be maintain for TcB: at least a defending TcB should be as effective than an attacking one.
Because, the same reasoning applied to TcBs and pilots about distant targets, less fuel, less time in the air above targets, more tired pilots, less accurate bombing, etc.

The main problem with Fgs at reduce combat values and cost was in carrier operation: the limited place for planes makes carriers weaker.
It was difficult to get such a defensive units like a full carrier with Fgs: 2 Fgs A6D8C20.

But just take a look at this HR thread, to see how it is resolved:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33334.msg1268768#msg1268768

Compared these two units now:

Fg A1First StrikeD2M4C7, 1 hit, all hit destroy an enemy plane first, if there is any.
Give +1A/D to any TcB paired with.

TcB A3-4D3-4M4C10, 1 hit, gain +1 A/D when paired 1:1 with any Fg.
Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs AB and NB.

Don’t they fit the description above?
TcBs will get the best of them when escorted by Fgs. When escorted, the stats will be almost like those of the old OOB Fg at 10 IPCs.

On the other side, a cheaper Fighter can be more easily buy and used as fodder to protect costlier units.
In itself a A1FS / D2 /M4 / C7 doesn’t seems as good as a A3D4C10, but it is as good unit on an A/D and hit per IPCs.
In addition, this lower value, for one part, by targeting planes directly makes them more dangerous against bombers, since they hit ground units (as per the OOB rule casualty mechanics), and for the other part, doesn’t make Fg a too good weapon against other units, which keeps the needs of having bombers in his own fleet to make substantial hits against ground and naval units.

Do you see where I’m going now?

These two units make a better pair and better depict their relative functions.

I realized that my view on both Fg and TcB come mostly from my numerous exchanges with Uncrustable.
Here is the principles which were my guidelines:
@Uncrustable:

But it gives each air unit a very distinctive role in the game, each are important…

1-Fighters are needed to protect friendly bombers from enemy air (fodder/escort SBR) and friendly facilities from SBR (intercept SBR).
-Fighters are also needed to vie for air dominance. (Air supremacy bonus for Tacs and taking out enemy air).

2-Tactical bombers are the meat of the air so to speak, they need Fighters (protection + air Supremacy bonus), but they are the best at destroying enemy units.

3-Strategic bombers are long range heavy hitters on offense, and can SBR. But they need both fighters … to perform efficiently. Next to worthless on defense.

There is much historical realism here.

If you think it needs some improvement on the historical parts, I’m all open to it.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@Baron:

Some interesting ways to develop a distinctive capacities for TcBs.
The capacity to hit subs vs Fgs should be examin closer.

The capacity to hit subs via any Airplane is a diffrent Type/Art of war wich will be very difficult to bring to a HR.
Just because there would be a Sub present in a selected Sz, doesn’t give you as an attacker the same opportunity to hit the same one.
If a DD is present and a Carrier, diffrent story (maybe).
But as long the Sub remains silent how would you know?

Adding a HR to hit a sub via Airplanes means that you don’t need to buy any more subs at all!

[toblerone77]

I’m all for HRs for whatever reason people may want to apply them to thier games. I guess I’m just not finding it all that attractive to strengthen TBs automatically while nerfing the fighter even at a lower cost.

I think that there are many players who would like to see a different way of allocating casualties between air and surface units as well as how they interact since 1914 has come out. I also think this would essentially need to go further than a few stat changes and or house rules. I am of the belief that to do this you would need to create a variant.

There are a lot of posts suggesting an entire change to how combat is conducted in order to make combat more realistic and make players allocate casualties based on type of unit rather than simply taking the weakest cheapest unit as a casualty.

I personally think that it requires a variant that departs from the OOB methodology.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

It is possible to get both world : fun, historical, and balance.
Fg A3D3C9 all the rest as OOB.
TcB A3D4C11 all the rest as OOB.
The cheaper Fg still interesting and competitive unit.
Historically cheaper also and not that good against ground than TcB.
TcB same price as OOB better defense against ground or naval.
In addition, in naval combat you will prefer sacrifice Fg instead of TcB, this not the case actually.

Do you see a problem in this?
I played it once and I will do it next time.
A HR just like I like them.
Simple.
Balanced.
Historically correct.
And funny.

For purists, Fg can even keep the 10 IPCs!

Keeping the A&A game mechanics,
I still maintain that this kind of stat will better depict the relation between Fg and TcB.
On attack, Fg A3C9 vs TcB D4C11, on the same IPC basis give this:
11 Fg vs 9 TcB = 63% vs 33% on AACalc
Meaning that, for the same cost, a Fg unit on offence is twice superior to a TcB even with a Def @4.

If someone really want to improve Fg vs TcB, you can lower Fg to A3D3C8.
11 Fg A3 vs 8 TcB D4 = 85% vs 13%. Becoming around 5.5 superior to TcB. (But not sure if anyone will want to buy a TcB…)

So even without giving the @4 to Fg, it is still the better plane and the cheaper, whether you choose a cost of 8 or 9 IPCs.
So with Fg you get more A/D for your IPCs.

Taking in itself 1 Fg A3D3 vs 1 TcB A3-4D4, we have the impression that TcB is a bigger hitter, true.
But when you can buy many planes, you get more with the cheaper Fg.

All is inside the actual A/D pts, hit, IPCs cost.

Of course a TcB A3-4D3-4, get +1 A/D when paired to Fg, is even weaker.

Giving a direct D4 without any other unit, can be easily explained by the advantage of being on defense of the homeland territory to hit ground troops.