Have been doing alot of thinking of a new set up for the game for some time now. and about ready to get down to some of the narous matter to this idea. First I thought a spring 44 start was perfect the allies are about to go on the attack on all fronts most of the powers have built there forces and deployed them so this scenario would be a battle with little large scale moblization needed. In fact as histroically shown most of the powers had blew there bolt in the case of UK and Russia manpower was begining to become a problem and production slowing. Only the US was still groing strong then and Germany was finally finding its war footing even if manpower was making cuts.
With this out I figured for the first time in this game Time limits were needed, Thus if Germany can keep Its 3 main territories (westerned Europe, Germany and Southern Germany) by the end of turn 5 it can see a negoiated setlement with the USSR, only if all of the original 1940 Soviet territories have been liberated and by the end of Turn 7 for the allies only if France and Belgium/Netherllands has been been liberated by the allies. Thus Germany can not achieve a totel victory in the game just National survive ablity.
roughly this would mean that each turn was 3 month period of time for each game turn which would put an end to the war in Spring 45 for russia and fall of 45 for the allies for German victory and 5 turns seems adequate for a Totel Allied victory in game terms.
I like the sound of that. If you manage to do it, you must post your thoughts here. We are all mental for any new ideas here.
I see your name is Bluecoat1861. Are you a Civil War fan?
This sounds like an interesting idea. This would basically be a version of A&A Europe, perhaps even a slightly smaller scale eliminating Africa and the Med, since by 1944 most action there had ceased. With so many versions of the game for 1942, 1941 and 1940 setups with some people (HBG) coming out with 1939 setups, I have often wondered what games starting in 43 or 44 would be like. I thought it would be kind of a waste but a timed version like you are suggesting might be fun.
Historically, it seems to me by Spring 1944, all the Allies were pretty much bent on stomping Germany into the dust. The Russians surely were and I think the Western Allies had pretty much the same thoughts, if for somewhat different reasons. I mean, the Russians were clearly bent on pure revenge. As for the Western Allies, England and France probably wanted revenge on the Germans too but the Americans, clearly the strongest of the Western Allies and were not really attacked directly by Germany, were more about helping out the other Allies, not so much revenge. Yes, I know some US ships were sunk by German U-Boats, but US soil was not invaded like with France or Russia and US cities were not bombed into ash like with England.
So basically, I’m not sure some sort of peace agreement would have been possible, particularly with Russia. Then again, these games don’t always flow historically true and this does sound like a fun challenge.
I don’t think it would work with our current maps. The territories would need to be broken down into smaller pieces. You mentioned that Germany had to keep the territories of Germany, W Germany and Greater Southern Germany. So Allied occupation of any of these by round 5 would result in a loss for Germany? That would mean 1 battle and that is it.
These are just my early ideas on this proposed project. I would have to see the setup and get more information on how the game would be played. Still sounds interesting though.
Well thought out and presented Knp. You are right that the existing territories are too large.
I am desperate, like others here, to see a late war-43/44- rush on Germany, but it would have to be a game like D-Day in scale. I know I would love a game like that the most of all the A&A games. Seeing Germany hang on to its allies(or not)and get pushed closer and closer to Berlin, would be my defensive dream. Heaven.
Good commentes the ball is rolling :)
OK if we go b the oringal corse in game turns that would be Allies lauch Overlord capturing Normandy/Bordou, The russians move and take Belarus and Baltic States on game turn 1; Allies take France and Southern France and the Russians take Eastern Poland and Romania on trun 2; Allies take Holland/Belgim and Greece and Russia Takes Bulgaia on Game turn 3; Germany Attacks Allies to retake Belgium fails, Russians take Poland and Slovakia/Hurgary on Game Turn 4; Allies take western Germany and Northern Italy, Russia takes Germany, Southern Germany and Yugoslavia on Game turn 5 war ends allies win.
So as you can see the 5 Game Turn can work with the map as is with presenting some real options such as do the allies go for Holland/Belgium or thrust stright for Western Germany, do the allies go for a soft underbelly stratgy ny going stright for Northern Italy and the Southern Germany ahead of the Red Army, do the Red go for broke and attack stright for Germany ignoring the Balkans.
The allies right upto 44 were scared that Stalin would conclude a seperate Peace as was Stalin fearfull of the allies making a seperate peace. So a seperate peace, for the terms of the game, is a real option however unreal that it was in fact.
And yep I am Civil War guy but the world wars was my first love LOL!
I see. Should be a quick game and having Victory Conditions helps too. I think Germany should have Northern Italy’s income as they effectively took it over as a puppet when the Allies landed in the South.
I wonder if Germany should have cheaper Land and Air units as a reflection of how accelerated its war effort became in 1944.
I am English, but started reading about Your Civil War at university. I too have always loved WW2, only now I probably know more about the Civil War. What is your interest and knowledge? Mine is battles, commanders and the units both East and West. Not the politics as much. The expert here is Cromwell Dude, but he has not been active for a few months.
Very neat idea. I look forward to seeing more as this develops.
Oh yeah, I forgot that starting in Spring 1944 would put it before D-Day. Perhaps this time the Germans could repulse the invasion? Interesting possibilities.
The mention of both the Western Allies and Russia fearing that the other side might sign a seperate peace with Germany is interesting. Perhaps something like that would work better with a 1943 start. If you think of Spring 1943, the Western Allies had invaded Sicily and I think started operations in Southern Italy. German armies in Stalingrad had surrendered and preperations for the big battle at Kursk were underway.
I do remember that Kursk was supposed to start in late June but Hitler delayed it to get more Tiger and Panther tanks and Ferdinand tank destroyers to the area so it didn’t start until early July.
Some possibilities:
Germany vs Western Allies: If Germany prevents the Anzio landings and hold the Allies at that defensive line that included Monte Casino, perhaps the Allies consider signing a peace with Germany?
Germany vs USSR: If the Germans succeed at Kursk and eliminate the large Russian salient there, perhaps the Soviets consider signing a peace with Germany? Not totally sure about this one because that would leave a LOT of Russian territory still in German hands. That would run counter to the whole purpose of Russia’s fight: to get the hated German invaders off of Soviet soil. Maybe if there was an agreement where Germany retreated to it’s 1941 border with Russia, then hostilities could cease between those two powers.
Now, if there were a seperate peace with one side, what would be the affect on the other side? If the Western Allies sign a peace, would it be possible for the Soviets to still defeat Germany? Would it be possible for Germany to reverse the situation and overwhelm Russia? You could say that it is possible that Roosevelt and Churchill got fed up with Stalin’s uncooperative attitude and were distrustful of Communism anyway so they decide to leave Russia to deal with Germany itself. Perhaps a peace with Germany and the Western Allies would require Germany to give up France?
To make it work you need the following:
Axis get a number of techs to start, plus special units ( heavy tanks, waffen SS)
Restrictions of invasions
Bombing German factories are at 1/2 value after a certain point ( underground factories)
Some german forces are different prices ( 2 IPC volkstrum infantry)
Fixed turn game, if allies don’t win by X, they lose
Here some first thoughts on Soviet National Objectives:
Soviet Union
Soviet Union while strong at the front as the spring of 44 comes it is exhausted and has largely used up its resources in waging war to defeat Germany, even with allied Lend Lease still pouring in. To show this the Soviet Union Mobilization reflects these new prices:
Infantry 3 Artillery 5 Mechanized Infantry 6
Tank 6 AA Gun 6
Fighter 12 Tactical Bomber 12 Bomber 24
Submarine 12 Destroyer 16 Cruiser 24
Aircraft Carriers 32 Battleship 40 Transports 14
All cost increase by 1 if there are German naval units in sea zone 127 and are doubled if German units control Archangel
Some costs are so high to reflect that there is no longer any infrastructure or even desire to build their construction such as in Battleships, Bombers and Aircraft Carriers.
The Soviet Union Start 44 with 24 IPC (Less 4 IPC held at start of 1940 game (Eastern Poland, Baltic States, Vyborg, and Karelia all German Held)). Stalin desired from the beginning to see Communism spread west into Europe, not only as a way for Marxist Victory but for the national security in protecting the Russian state.
3 IPCs for each of the following territories Germany, Poland, Slovakia/Hungary, Romania, and 1 IPCs for each of the following territories Finland, Yugoslavia, and Bulgaria; as along as ALL original Russian 1940 territories are held at same time.
Quick note: Vyborg isn’t worth any IPCs. To give Germany 4 IPCs of Russian territory, you would have to give them another territory, perhaps Belarus.
Also, Bessarabia is also not worth any IPCs.
Opps sorry Missed that one this “morning” your right even having the map right beside me then and thinking it, ya well have a spring 44 scenario without the need for Operation Bagration :-P Belerus should’ve been in that list too. Thanks :-)
