Should you liberate France?

[Jennifer]

What if we applied the China rules to France?

German NO:  The first time Germany captures France, Germany gains +19 IPC.  Each subsequent round that Germany controls France, Germany gets 5 IPC a round (this is to make up for France being allowed to build infantry elsewhere…)

France:  If Paris, France is in allied control, France may purchase Infantry and Artillery - else, France may only purchase infantry and place them in any French controlled territory.  Subsequently, of course, like with China, the allies can never control French territories, but the Axis can!

[BulwFi]

I would take Paris back just for the demoralise effect (only if it can be held). Simply because if i was the German player I would be gutted. Also my dice would more than likey become awful as the verbal abuse from my opponents would be horrendous.

[Yavid]

@Cmdr:

Spendo02/Yavid,

Understood, but how can we fix that problem?  Churchill and Roosevelt would never avoid liberating Paris just because they’d magically lose control of cities they already liberated - right?

So I was thinking, what if Allied nations could only liberate French territories, they can never take possession?  Makes sniping Madagascar kinda worth it - sometimes (like if you can retreat the transport later!), means taking the NO for N. Africa is no longer tantamount to giving America more money, etc.  Also helps Germany since the allies are not producing in Normandy/Vichy France.

I like your idea, change that I love the idea, but I think players will just side step France all together, Invade Holland and build an IC.

[Make_It_Round]

@Cmdr:

What if we applied the China rules to France? Â

German NO:  The first time Germany captures France, Germany gains +19 IPC.  Each subsequent round that Germany controls France, Germany gets 5 IPC a round (this is to make up for France being allowed to build infantry elsewhere…)

France:  If Paris, France is in allied control, France may purchase Infantry and Artillery - else, France may only purchase infantry and place them in any French controlled territory.  Subsequently, of course, like with China, the allies can never control French territories, but the Axis can!

In one way, I’m an advocate of greater consistency in the rules; I think that the Dutch territories ought to be treated as Pro-Allied neutrals, for example, instead of Allied countries that can be conquered.

In another way, I’m an advocate of game balance; and I think that treating the French like the Chinese would tip the scales strongly in the favor of the Allies.

In still another way, I’m an advocate of historical accuracy; I’d like to see a set of rules in place covering the political factions that emerge when a capital falls, i.e. pro-Axis Vichy France and pro-Allied Italian Co-Belligerent Forces.

So, your interesting proposal drags my intuitions in a few conflicting directions.

Historically, some forces would keep on fighting after the fall of a capital, while others would defect. Resistance forces would typically be ill-equipped, as they would suffer from the disruption of their production facilities – thus they can only field infantry units. This fits the China - France - Dutch situation.

In terms of game balance, only Allied nations can really lose their capitals without losing the game; so any rule that allows a nation to create new units without being in possession of their capital would exclusively benefit the Allies. In a game that is already skewed against the Axis, this would be considered disadvantageous.

Finally, when considering consistency, I always wondered what made the Chinese so special that they could produce any # of units from one territory, especially when that territory lacks an IC. Each Chinese infantry gets a ‘free ride’ to the front lines upon production, which gives them a huge edge over enemy units. I’d prefer to see China be able to produce one infantry per territory, and not on territories that weren’t under their control since the beginning of the turn. And if China could do this, then why not the French? And why not nations that still have their capitals? Why not every nation? Well, because this would mean that the game would bog down in infantry-heavy purchases and defence, and then the Axis are at a serious disadvantage: rules consistency would further compromise balance, in this case.

Thus I believe that, on the whole, your proposal – which favors historical realism at the cost of game balance and rules consistency – ought to be rejected.

[ghr2]

skewed to the axis as in axis favored?

[Witt]

Make It Round: I liked your argument.
Amtalking 1940 only here: countries whose capitals are captured(UK and Italy are most on my mind) should be able to continue the fight from elsewhere. It happened in Italy’s case and am sure would have happened if England had fallen (Canada and South Africa).
As for China’s unit  placement. It is so wierd and un A&A. Have never liked or understood why it is as It is.

[Make_It_Round]

@ghr2:

skewed to the axis as in axis favored?

Sorry, I meant ‘skewed against’. Have edited the post accordingly.

BTW, are we soon due to play again in the tourny?

[gamerman01]

Hmm - kind of interesting reading. I liberated and held France in the first game of 1940 I’ve ever played past round 5. It’s an Alpha3 game played recently. I played it against the current league leader. I lost it in round 11 (barely) in the Pacific. He had only 2 bombers left over in taking Hawaii and I couldn’t take anything back. But it’s not because I went extra heavy in Europe - I was just too slow concentrating back on the Pacific due to inexperience (again, first game past round 5)

I think liberating France was absolutely the right thing to do in this game. Germany/Italy couldn’t counter-attack and never attacked France. I built in it for several rounds, and France was making 21. As Zhukov pointed out, Euro-Axis is in deep trouble if this is happening.

I did not mind losing the American factory capability in Normandy. It costs 18 IPC’s per turn to build 3 tanks anyway, and I didn’t have a lot of American air to support them. Plus 5 IPC’s for the NO.  I could liberate and hold France because Germany went pretty hard after Russia. But he didn’t ignore the Western Allies totally either. You’ll have to see it yourself.

I hear you guys saying 99% of the time France doesn’t/shouldn’t get liberated, or that you’ve played many games and only seen it once. So I thought I should pipe up and say - uh - happened in my first full game and didn’t seem all that weird. See for yourself.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27547.0

I wanted to buy tech with them just because I could, or a luxury unit (battleship, bomber, carrier, something!) but it was too tight of a game. I did build armor, artillery, mech infantry, and 2 fighters by France 10.

[ghr2]

@Make_It_Round:

@ghr2:

skewed to the axis as in axis favored?

Sorry, I meant ‘skewed against’. Have edited the post accordingly.

Well, it does not seem skewed against the axis at all right now.

[Jennifer]

Make_It_round,

I disagree that it helps the allies.  A bit, yes, but how many French territories are usually unconquered?  Madagascar, perhaps FEA, FCA and FWA for a total of 4 IPC.

In contrast, the United States usually gets Morocco, Algeria, Tunis and England W. France, S. France and Syria. (That doesnt even count Naval bases and industrial complexes!)

If you remove the US/UK ability to do that, but give the French a pittance in the form an an extra infantry, maybe 2, a round (with the second being WAY off, like 1:4 ratio) I think it maintains balance and restores a little bit of historical accuracy.  Just my two copper.

[Ghostglider]

I have take Paris in a game and almost lost the game because of this. Germany could take Paris back 3 rounds in a row and thereby making a lot of extra money.
I agree with what have been said above… If Paris can be held, it should be taken… Else leave it alone! If you take it, then let France purchase INF to secure the VC and US can focus 100% on Japan.

[Spendo02]

A suggestion to make it more reasonable for the Allies to liberate France:

An Axis controlled Paris allows the French to place 1 Inf per round in the mobilization section during the French Purchase Units Phase.  These units cannot be placed on the map unless Paris has been liberated by the Allies, can only be placed during the French turn, and can only be placed in Paris.

[ghr2]

@Spendo02:

A suggestion to make it more reasonable for the Allies to liberate France:

An Axis controlled Paris allows the French to place 1 Inf per round in the mobilization section during the French Purchase Units Phase.  These units cannot be placed on the map unless Paris has been liberated by the Allies, can only be placed during the French turn, and can only be placed in Paris.

That sounds dirty.

[Cow]

I still have never seen france liberated @_@

[gamerman01]

@Cow:

I still have never seen france liberated @_@

That’s because you didn’t look at my game.  I provided a link.

[Spendo02]

I’ve been of the line of thinking that Germany’s in deep trouble of Paris gets liberated and I’m not a fan of the see-saw ability it has to retake Paris almost at will (although not always).

I think 7, 8, 10 infantry in Paris provides enough fodder to prevent the likely German counter and collection of French IPC again, but mostly eliminates any punching power for at least 2 German purchases before the French can put any pressure on WGr.

[gamerman01]

You should look at my game, Spendo.

It’s not always about the French putting pressure on West Germany. It’s about holding France.
I bought 2 fighters, a mech, artillery, and a tank. Reason was because I was trading North Italy and Holland, and I controlled all the Balkans. I bought mech partly because of placement in South France (to immediately threaten Holland and WGr) and partly so that I could shoot it to Yugoslavia to protect my allies there, after taking North Italy again.

A lot of you are talking about liberating France in the hypothetical because you’ve never seen it! If you’ve never seen it, you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Look at my game, for crying out loud! :-)

Another reason to liberate France - Germany doesn’t have to defend France if he’s daring you to take it. He can even get cute and leave a unit or two there, knowing you won’t attack. France has a lot of strategic value - it borders both West Germany and North Italy, and has a very strategic air base! It also keeps Germany from attacking or trading out Normandy and South France! I also failed to mention before that you are conceding another 3 IPC’s per turn to Germany by not liberating. It’s overly simplistic to say that the USA is giving up a factory or two and 8 IPC’s income (ignoring the 5 they get back from having a unit in France) and therefore you should never liberate France. As some are saying (Zhukov, Ghost), if you can take and hold France, it’s often the wise thing to do.

[Jennifer]

I’ve seen quite a few games where Germany has France, but no defense in it at all despite England/America having S. France and W. France.  I’ve very rarely seen the allies liberate France because:
A) France collects money just in time for Germany to take it from them
B) They lose their Fench holdings (and thus the IPC for them)

Both of these should not exist, in my opinion.  The allies should be encouraged to liberate Paris as often as possible!  Well, in my opinion anyway.  Hence why I am leaning towards the house rule:

I.  France may only lose it’s treasury once, after that, their resources are spread too thin for direct capture by the enemy (not a new rule, it exists in the game already - China.)
II.  Allied nations may NEVER take possession of original French territories - just as they cannot take Chinese territories (not a new rule, it exists somewhere in the game already - China.)
III. From the time the French capitol falls until it is liberated - France may only purchase Infantry - but may place them on any non-conquered French territory they choose (not a new rule, it exists somewhere in the game already - China)
IV. If the French capitol is free at the time of the French purchase units phase, and should France have enough IPC to do so, France may purchase Artillery and place them in any non-conquered territory that was originally French (not a new rule, it exists somewhere in the game already - China.)
V.  Until the French capitol is lost the first time, France may purchase any legal unit as any other nation.

Essentially, I advocate treating France identically to how China is treated.  It’s a sovereign nation, but it is a special nation.  Think of it this way, Germany destroys all warmaking ability of the French when they take over, the allies destroy anything Germany rebuilds liberating it - France can only really build a few Artillery pieces (essentially nothing more than minor cannons and rockets) if they can get allied resources landed in Paris, (or like China can if the trail is open) otherwise, they’re hard pressed enough to get grease guns in the hands of insurgents.

[gamerman01]

And let me guess.  You haven’t looked at my game either.  :roll:

[Jennifer]

@Gamerman01:

And let me guess.  You haven’t looked at my game either.  :roll:

By my “I’ve seen a lot of games where…” I mean either games I played or games in the tournament last year.