@Guerrilla:
Alright. I’ve edited this topic heavily, and tried and remove both the political aspects earlier in the thread, as well as the heated debate that happened in the middle of the thread. This topic is concerned with China and US and how they are developing themselves currently as world super powers. This thread is not concerned with bashing America, nor necessarily with bashing China. If we talk about human rights implications, that is fine, but understand that allowing that line of discussion is in line with discussing how that affects their position instead of making generalizations about the people groups, cultures, etc.
I am not bringing this topic back to appease members. I am not bringing this topic back to spite members. I never considered the topic a total failure, i.e. a politically charged topic bound to result in debate. I just realized I had let go of my duty as a moderator to keep track of it, and subsequently it had gotten out of hand. I will be monitoring this thread as I do all general discussions.
Post away.
GG
BURN IT!!! BURN IT ALL!!!
@Young:
BURN IT!!! BURN IT ALL!!!
I’m with garsshopper on this one, BURN IT TO THE GROUND!!!
Hey, read the subject, this ain’t no Fahrenheit 451 sequel! :mrgreen:
Everyone knows they are doing it but nobody dares to ask them to stop?
China military unit 'behind prolific hacking
Everyone knows they are doing it but nobody dares to ask them to stop?
China military unit 'behind prolific hacking
I imagine we have imbedded units trying to break into their infrastructure and gain definitive proof. It kind of shows that they have a significant weakness in some R&D if they are having to cheat their way into the 21st Century. Holding debt is only one piece of the domination puzzle. Otherwise, why risk the espionage? Especially with the possible reparations.
GG
Especially with the possible reparations.
If only there actually was a penalty. Ever hear of Nortel? Used to be Canada’s #1 tech company.
It was actually when US newspapers started reporting on the personal wealth of Chinese leaders that the hacking story started getting traction.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/01/31/new-york-times-hacking/1879585/
In the Nortel case, was it ever connected to the Chinese government? Granted, I do think the US is more likely to react if they found out it was an Aerospace or Defense Contractor somewhere in the AngloAmerican Sphere, but China can just call foul on their constituency, which they cannot find.
GG
GG, the articles I cited directly pointed the finger at China. China can claim it’s the actions of their private citizens….who have to bypass the great firewall of China.
China is targeting “Aerospace or Defense Contractor somewhere in the AngloAmerican Sphere”
Happens every day
Just in today’s headlines:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21556611
An old article but funny Microsoft software runs US aircraft carriers….
GG, the articles I cited directly pointed the finger at China. China can claim it’s the actions of their private citizens….who have to bypass the great firewall of China.
China is targeting “Aerospace or Defense Contractor somewhere in the AngloAmerican Sphere”
Happens every day
Just in today’s headlines:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21556611
An old article but funny Microsoft software runs US aircraft carriers….
I understand that, as far as the original article. The Nortel article doesn’t state it was the government, “just hackers apparently based in China carried on a decade-long campaign of stealing technical papers, R&D reports, employee e-mails, and other sensitive documents from the network company.” No governmental ties, or none stated. You seem to be stating that the Nortel case was an example of no penalty being ascribed to a government, yet in all honesty it would be against individuals within the government’s jurisdiction doing illegal activity.
In the unit 69318 case, they haven’t definitively proven that, so of course no sanctions. I don’t doubt the Anglo-American sphere are trying to imbed operatives to figure out if there is a link. The second the US has a lock for that the Chinese government hacked into Lockheed and stole plans for the F-35, I have no doubt there will be embargoes to pay for Chinese goods.
GG
The unit 69318 case…. It could be just a group of a few 100 computer scientists who routinely breach the firewall of china on a 24/7 basis with huge resources and working out of a state owned building with massive fibre optic hookups. In a nation where its dangerous for two falan gong members to talk, having 100s of people working for years breaching nation-state firewalls is just beyond belief that the state is not aware and supportive of this.
Same with Nortel. You just can’t have this kinda of persistent attacks going on without state support. Gangs and individuals steal things they can make money on. What China is getting is unique to state actors.
For instance, what financial gain would gangs get from jamming the broadcasts of the BBC?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21575913
If the US can prove a smoking gun, you really thing they will punish China with trade embargoes? No, when a bully can not only steal your lunch money but just take it in front of your parents and teachers nobody dares to mention the 8, 000 lb gorilla then you know you are dealing with a tough bully.
I would love to see China be made to play fair but nobody dares speak the obvious.
The unit 69318 case…. It could be just a group of a few 100 computer scientists who routinely breach the firewall of china on a 24/7 basis with huge resources and working out of a state owned building with massive fibre optic hookups. In a nation where its dangerous for two falan gong members to talk, having 100s of people working for years breaching nation-state firewalls is just beyond belief that the state is not aware and supportive of this.
I’m in agreement, I think the Chinese government would go to great lengths to infiltrate Western Corporate databases and steal information for nefarious reasons or otherwise. If the state is supportive of it, they are hiding it well though, that is my point. We have nothing to pin on them, even if we wanted reparations. I find it odd though, you stated in the first post that you found it odd that no one asked China to stop, and later on stated that they inevitably are a bully that the West are impotent to oppose. I’m not a big believer in international political pressure, but you must have something in mind, and I’m guessing beside embargoes?
Same with Nortel. You just can’t have this kinda of persistent attacks going on without state support. Gangs and individuals steal things they can make money on. What China is getting is unique to state actors.
Gangs and individuals steal things they can make money on? What about Anonymous? Sony, Visa, Paypal, Amazon, Bank of America, Tunisian Government, Australian Government. I digress though. I think with examples like Nortel, you are seeing the reemergence of the Cold War, with different secondary actors, namely MNC’s.
For instance, what financial gain would gangs get from jamming the broadcasts of the BBC?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21575913
I refer back to Anonymous, which has had a multiplicity of ethical engagements with different entities.
If the US can prove a smoking gun, you really thing they will punish China with trade embargoes? No, when a bully can not only steal your lunch money but just take it in front of your parents and teachers nobody dares to mention the 8, 000 lb gorilla then you know you are dealing with a tough bully.
If China was doing it in the open, then I would say you would be right. Once again, even according to the article, they haven’t definitively proved state-sponsored involvement. “Probably,” is a stretch, and in international politics, outright innocence.
I would love to see China be made to play fair but nobody dares speak the obvious.
I think some (certainly not all) of China’s degrade will actually come from an odd source, a resurgence of ethical fervor in the West. I don’t mean religious fervor either (although for some, that has tied in), but with the successful marketing ploys of smaller corporations, like Freeb!rds, Chipotle, IKEA, Whole Foods, etc. It would take years, but part of the anger is focused on China and other major players in the “diminished working conditions” world.
Report out of the UK outlining consumer shifts: http://www.co-operative.coop/PageFiles/416561607/Ethical-Consumerism-Report-2011.pdf
GG
Granted Anonymous is a great counter argument to my profit motives argument. But it is distributed across many nations and does have a pattern to its attacks, and so does unit 69318.
I am hoping that the recent revelations by Microsoft, NYT etc will force a change in policy and that nation state forensic teams can prove beyond doubt it is state sponsored IT theft.
I honestly think most companies are scared to piss off China so don’t complain to loudly. Nortel was embarrassing for Canada.
China’s fall will be health issues from pollution. Once the citizens feel they can force improvements then the playing field will even out.
China’s Mainland Home to 247 ‘Cancer Villages’
http://english.cri.cn/6909/2013/02/25/2743s750357.htm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323293704578331832012056800.html
China on Hackers…
What’s funny, the U.S. accusses china of launching Hacking attacks, and threatens they’ll do “pre-emptive” hacking attacks of their own if the attacks don’t stop.
Then that China Cites 68% of hacks to it’s military website come from the U.S…
Then the U.S. says -in the same article- that they don’t launch state sponsored hacking attacks.
LOL But I guess the U.S. is set up for them? lolol…
I read that article too. I suspect citizens of the west are a bit more free to do things than those in China, like hacking. I am sure ECHELON is a form of hacking that has benefited the english speaking nations that are the controlling members. But the primary purpose of ECHELON is not to steal secrets. I am sure some information does trickle down the benefits friendly nations companies, but again, not the primary purpose as unit 69318.
Interesting stuff to me at least!
Us, China, and Russia for world position.
We should have nuked china during the Korean war when we had a chance…
LOL, now that would make for an interesting alternative history novel! I suspect the soviets would have gotten a bit more powerful without the soviet/sino split. The cuban missile crises could have gone hot. Talk about the law of unintended consequences!
We should have nuked china during the Korean war when we had a chance…
Wow that was the fastest +2 I ever got!
It was already at +1 by the time I put my 2 cents in nickel in!
I confess I was your +1.
Too slow Malachi!
