Alpha 3 due next week

[gamerman01]

@knp7765:

Also, Stalin distrusted the British and was only too happy to see Germany pound them.  He wouldn’t commit to a war with Germany because London fell.

It’s not that Stalin would be sticking up for the British.  It’s that he would know that Hitler would be coming for him next.  He WOULD commit to war if London falls, and apparently Mr. Harris agrees with me or he wouldn’t have adjusted his rules for this.  And where are you guys (I’ve heard others say this) getting that Stalin thought Hitler would honor the Non-aggression pact?  I find that very, very hard to believe.  Dictators trust no-one, especially other dictators.

[Alsch91]

@knp7765:

Another thing was that Stalin really believed that Hitler would honor their non-aggression pact.  He almost totally ignored the reports of the German mobilization to the Soviet border.

He only believed in it as far as it would help his cause.  He had no intention of being at peace with Germany permanently, it’s just that Hitler surprised him historically.

For one thing, the Red Army was in no condition to take on the Wehrmacht.

Correct, in 1941, after about a year of German preparation.
But after an invasion of England, with a mis-positioned and dramatically weakened Wehrmacht, the Red Army absolutely would have acted.

It was the idealogical goal of the Red Army to be an offensive force.  That’s partially why they failed so dramatically while on defense.

Also, Stalin distrusted the British and was only too happy to see Germany pound them.  He wouldn’t commit to a war with Germany because London fell.

Sure, he distrusted the British.  But he sure distrusted the Germans as well.  It’s just that it was to Russia’s advantage - temporarily - to align itself with Germany.

[ahensley85]

So played a game today with Alpha 3 and I got to say its not as bad as it seems.  Tried a Sealion on G3 and it almost succeeded.  The main reason it didn’t was some worse than average rolls.  I would say an average roll or maybe slightly better than average would have been needed.  I could see a problem with Russia getting to declare war if London had fallen, as all my troops would have been out of position.  The AA gun in France was pretty irrelevant (no planes lost and just one extra casualty).  The DOW with Japan and Russia and the freaking Mongolian’s is just weird to me.  Trying to avoid that is more difficult than it seems.  I will say though that Japan was on par with the US after Calcutta fell.  Italy isn’t in as bad shape as they appear.  They did clear out the Med on I3.  They purchased mostly Naval Units to do it before turning their attention to the Mid East.  I dunno guys,  Alpha 3, is pretty darn interesting.  Not saying I am going to give it 5 stars, but I think it might be ok.  It doesn’t seem to have hurt the axis as much as it appears.  I probably could have won if Sealion had gone just slightly better. (Or if there were 2 AA guns instead of 4)

Just my thoughts.

[ViribusUnitis]

After a closer review I too think that the changes in Alpha+.3 may not be too bad.

I’d be content with everything if there would be a balancing benefit  for the Axis against the Mongol rule.

Since I understand Larry is content with making the Med a very important scene, I suggest that some kind of neutral rule for Spain should be developed. Say Spain joins the Axis when all Italian No’s are fulfilled…? IMO this would provoke some serious action of all involved powers. Britain is in a good position to put up a fight there and Germany would have an alternative goal for the first rounds instead of SL, which would benefit them greatly in the later game. (Access to Gibraltar)

For example: G1 sink the Brit fleet, G2 and G3 help Italy to gain their NO’s and prepare for Barbarossa, G4 go east.

Any opinions?

[Stalingradski]

My goodness? How is it possible to have any idea whatsover if Alpha 3 is good or not without 3 or 4 playtests?

Play some games, and if it’s not good, then hammer away. But it came out yesterday!

It looks fine to me until proven otherwise, and I do have some faith that some pretty good players playtested it and some pretty good minds spent time thinking about it. More time than any of us.

We’re all entitled to our opinion, but wow.

Viribus, that wasn’t directed to you, but to a huge group of people on both sites.

[ahensley85]

@Stalingradski:

My goodness? How is it possible to have any idea whatsover if Alpha 3 is good or not without 3 or 4 playtests?

Play some games, and if it’s not good, then hammer away. But it came out yesterday!

It looks fine to me until proven otherwise, and I do have some faith that some pretty good players playtested it and some pretty good minds spent time thinking about it. More time than any of us.

We’re all entitled to our opinion, but wow.

Viribus, that wasn’t directed to you, but to a huge group of people on both sites.

I think people just need to play it. I was a little sceptical at first but after playing it I kinda like it.  I think it is an adjustment.  I kinda see a way for the axis to win.  Just gotta change your strategy a bit.  I think Air Power will be more important with Germany now.  Anyways I like it after playing it.  I need a few more games to be sure.

[jim010]

@Stalingradski:

My goodness? How is it possible to have any idea whatsover if Alpha 3 is good or not without 3 or 4 playtests?

Play some games, and if it’s not good, then hammer away. But it came out yesterday!

It looks fine to me until proven otherwise, and I do have some faith that some pretty good players playtested it and some pretty good minds spent time thinking about it. More time than any of us.

We’re all entitled to our opinion, but wow.

Viribus, that wasn’t directed to you, but to a huge group of people on both sites.

We are not opening this game up for the first time.  We have all played this, and some have played it extensively.  It is obvious to see what some changes will do to established tactics.  For example, I know Sealion is out because we have already hammered out the best UK defense possible in a thread, and I know what 4 extra soak will do because I can do math.

The ONLY thing we couldn’t say with any real certainty is if these changes open up new possibilities (which I doubt).

So don’t be so surprised when experienced players voice concerns,as they likely know what they are talking about.  Its like GM decided to change the design of their cars to not have a windshield.  I have enough experience driving a car to know that is a bad idea.

[gamerman01]

@jim010:

We are not opening this game up for the first time.  We have all played this, and some have played it extensively.  It is obvious to see what some changes will do to established tactics.  For example, I know Sealion is out because we have already hammered out the best UK defense possible in a thread, and I know what 4 extra soak will do because I can do math.

The ONLY thing we couldn’t say with any real certainty is if these changes open up new possibilities (which I doubt).

So don’t be so surprised when experienced players voice concerns,as they likely know what they are talking about.  Its like GM decided to change the design of their cars to not have a windshield.  I have enough experience driving a car to know that is a bad idea.

Very well put, Jim.  Thanks for saving me the time to say the same thing.

[ahensley85]

If we played Alpha 3 where is a good place to post your analysis of it?

[jim010]

I don’t mind losing Sealion, though.  But I wonder about Japan’s ability now to assist in attacking Russia.

My successes as Axis all invovled Sealion, or a no holds barred attack on Russia.  Both are now dininished, and I don’t see any other avenue to victory.

MAYBE the removal of $5 bonus from the US to Paris will help …

[jim010]

@ahensley85:

If we played Alpha 3 where is a good place to post your analysis of it?

Start a new thread.

[AllyAxis]

Played for 12+ hours yesterday enacting my All Axis on the Soviet Union strategy.  I found that Amur slowed me down a bit,  but ultimately I made it across to Russia with 7 tanks and 5 infantry.  course I lost everything on the pacific map, but Russia is totally surrounded using the Italians taking the Middle Easy and building a minor IC in Iraq and piping troops up from the south.  Germany has Lenningrad and is about to retake stalingrad.

Although it appears on the surface that it is pro Allies,  the IPC changes to America helped as they averaged 72 IPCs till they retook the phillipines.

I bascially sacrificed holding the pacific map to get the Japanese forces into russia and do a serious money grab.

The AA gun changes also will help the Axis take Moscow as they only get shots against 6 planes.  We’re not done playing yet,  The allies are strong in the pacific map but can’t get to Cairo to reinforce or Russia to help out.  There is a fleet pinned down by my 7 subs and I have  2 tacs and 4 fighters in Western Germany with ground troops .  I have Italians in Frace.

I think overall the Axis recieved a 10 IPC bonus from loosing some NO’s that were easily attainable by Britian and the US.

Will post pics when I can!

So far…  I’d say that the Axis did well in Alpha 3 with the NO changes and the Amur thing didn’t slow me down too badly .  course if the game was based upon one side of the map or the other  the pacific war is a total axis loss.  But the Japanese are stomping with the rest of the axis on Moscow.  They only have 11 IPCs  and won’t get more than 9 for sure next turn.

[AllyAxis]

@mantlefan:

Thanks for the analysis AllyAxis.

One thing to note is that Russia also has 2 AA guns in Novgorod, so they cna actually have 4 in Moscow. Also, IN most games I have played Germany can’t afford to send all of its planes to Moscow even jsut for that attack, so I don’t see 12 or less shots bothering the soviets that much. Let’s not forget the cumulative effects of those 4 extra hits over multiple rounds, either.

Did Japan ever get that new NO of theirs? Did Normandy or SZ 91 Survive Germany’s first turn? What did UK do to the Italian navy on round 1?

Obviously I haven’t seen the game but it seems like Itlay is having a pretty easy go of things even though UK barely had to worry about sealion.

I have already taken Lenningrad  and Moscow only has 2 AA guns.  They never moved them anywhere else and died in Lenningrad.  I have a plan but just in case my Allied player is reading I cannot reveal it yet.  I will be able to get more than 6 planes to moscow for sure before my final attack.  I am starting turn 7.

I took out the British Navy Turn 1  except for Canada and Sea Zone 109 destroyer /transport.

I went ALL AXIS on the Soviets  strategy.  So basically I only took land DEI, China  to generate IPC’s to build tanks.  I built a Major in Kiangsu on turn 3 and piped 7 tanks and 5 infantry and am currently sucking the life out of the Soviet Union.  So no .  I ignored the new NO completely.  I also Ignored Amur and went north of it and south of it.

British Navy attacked the Italian Battleship and  Cruiser but failed to take it. Italy survived with damaged battleship but I lost a scrambled fighter. no biggie the transport and Battleship were alive to fight another day with the cruiser destroyer sub and transport in SZ 95.

they did destroy the Malta Italian fleet SZ 96.  but he lost his entire navy in the Mediterranean and there was nothing he could do to deny my 5 IPC bonus for Italys entire game. he just didn’t have enough power the rest of the game with his navy unless america committed to it which they did not.  they went KJF  while I basically got cash built tanks headed west to Soviet russia fortified japan’s capital  and said screw the pacific map.

I will post links to my photo journal probably in a new thread.  Not my best photo journal but its something.  IF they will let me post links to my fb page where I host the images as public images.

I’m loading them now.  But it will take a while to label them .  I have them organized.

[AllyAxis]

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.242698569100351.51790.100000806294654&l=9c9f52613f&type=1

this is the setup for Alpha 3.  I heard later I got a tactical bomber back.  but it didn’t matter.  I still took out the British Navy and took France.  AA gun missed totally.

Here is my turn 1 link.  I didn’t take pictures of America’s limited movement .  Not my best photo journal since I was busy worrying about playing the Axis.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.242704939099714.51791.100000806294654&l=2aab661a53&type=1

[Omega1759]

@AllyAxis:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.242698569100351.51790.100000806294654&l=9c9f52613f&type=1

this is the setup for Alpha 3.   I heard later I got a tactical bomber back.  but it didn’t matter.  I still took out the British Navy and took France.  AA gun missed totally.

Here is my turn 1 link.   I didn’t take pictures of America’s limited movement .  Not my best photo journal since I was busy worrying about playing the Axis.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.242704939099714.51791.100000806294654&l=2aab661a53&type=1

Looks like the axis have it easy there, bad moves / purchases from the Allies!

[AllyAxis]

@mantlefan:

Thanks for the analysis AllyAxis.

One thing to note is that Russia also has 2 AA guns in Novgorod, so they cna actually have 4 in Moscow.

Very good point!!!  I will retreat them in the future when playing the Soviet Union if practical.  Better they survive to fight in the main onslaught than russia spending additional IPCs on air defese in the capitol.  I go back and forth on holding Lenningrad.  It depends upon Germany if I decide to hold it or not.  but anything to make Moscow harder to get is a good strat always.  thanks for the tip!

[knp7765]

Just finished our first game of Alpha+3.  Axis won in 7 rounds – Germany/Italy captured 8 of 11 on Europe board.  Was just about to take London too.  Japan also came close to getting 6 of 8 on the Pacific board but USA retook Honolulu in last round.
Germany decided against Sealion and concentrated on sacking Paris, sinking Royal Navy and preparing for Barbarossa.  Put Major IC in Romania round 1.  Round 2 put 3 transports in Black Sea and an airbase for Romania with 3 fighters ready to go.  Round 3 took Caucasus and launched Barbarossa all along European front.  Russia tried putting stacks of infantry along border (6-8) but it did no good as Germany was able to amass lots of men, artillery and tanks all along border.  Russia held tanks and artillery in reserve but did no counterattack so Germany just kept smashing along.  Poor choices by Russia this time I think.  By end of round 5, Germany had Moscow surrounded with nearly 3-1 advantage.  The Romanian Major IC and transports in the Black Sea really helped Germany get ahead fast, plus get the Middle-East NOs much earlier than usual.
Italy had a hard time in the Med with Britain and it went back and forth…  They must have exchanged Egypt 3 or 4 times before Italy finally got enough stuff there to be able to hold it.  UK couldn’t keep up with Italy’s builds plus keep chasing German submarines.
Japan overran China but left Russia alone at first.  Got a good size force in Burma ready to attack India but India attacked first and destroyed Japan’s invasion force.  US and Japanese fleets clash in Philippine Sea and annihilate each other.  However, US is making more money and can better replace their fleet, which they start doing.  Japan manages to take Hawaii and hold for 3 rounds.  US takes Hawaii back, but Japan takes Sydney.  Japan starting to build new navy to counter US.  Also with Minor ICs in Shanghai and Hong Kong, sending tanks toward Burma.  Japan’s air force down to about 1/3 of starting.
I don’t really see that much difference in Alpha 3.  The new AA gun rule is interesting and nearly cost Japan the Sydney battle with those 2 extra defense hit soaks.  Since Germany didn’t go after London, the “Russia attacking after London falls” rule didn’t apply.  I think the new Italian fleet layout helps the Italians a lot, and so does having a strat bomber.  Overall, I think the game still largely depends on the players skill, experience and choices.

[AllyAxis]

@knp7765:

Just finished our first game of Alpha+3.  Axis won in 7 rounds – Germany/Italy captured 8 of 11 on Europe board.  Was just about to take London too.  Japan also came close to getting 6 of 8 on the Pacific board but USA retook Honolulu in last round.
Germany decided against Sealion and concentrated on sacking Paris, sinking Royal Navy and preparing for Barbarossa.  Put Major IC in Romania round 1.  Round 2 put 3 transports in Black Sea and an airbase for Romania with 3 fighters ready to go.  Round 3 took Caucasus and launched Barbarossa all along European front.  Russia tried putting stacks of infantry along border (6-8) but it did no good as Germany was able to amass lots of men, artillery and tanks all along border.  Russia held tanks and artillery in reserve but did no counterattack so Germany just kept smashing along.  Poor choices by Russia this time I think.  By end of round 5, Germany had Moscow surrounded with nearly 3-1 advantage.  The Romanian Major IC and transports in the Black Sea really helped Germany get ahead fast, plus get the Middle-East NOs much earlier than usual.
Italy had a hard time in the Med with Britain and it went back and forth…  They must have exchanged Egypt 3 or 4 times before Italy finally got enough stuff there to be able to hold it.  UK couldn’t keep up with Italy’s builds plus keep chasing German submarines.
Japan overran China but left Russia alone at first.  Got a good size force in Burma ready to attack India but India attacked first and destroyed Japan’s invasion force.  US and Japanese fleets clash in Philippine Sea and annihilate each other.  However, US is making more money and can better replace their fleet, which they start doing.  Japan manages to take Hawaii and hold for 3 rounds.  US takes Hawaii back, but Japan takes Sydney.  Japan starting to build new navy to counter US.  Also with Minor ICs in Shanghai and Hong Kong, sending tanks toward Burma.  Japan’s air force down to about 1/3 of starting.
I don’t really see that much difference in Alpha 3.  The new AA gun rule is interesting and nearly cost Japan the Sydney battle with those 2 extra defense hit soaks.  Since Germany didn’t go after London, the “Russia attacking after London falls” rule didn’t apply.  I think the new Italian fleet layout helps the Italians a lot, and so does having a strat bomber.  Overall, I think the game still largely depends on the players skill, experience and choices.

I totally agree with you.  I think the 6-8 infantry wall is a bad choice for the Soviets. Better to buffer and counter when you can and stack a large force until you can build tanks to counter with them.

Love the idea of transports in SZ100.  Have to use that sometime.  At first I wasn’t sure about the Major in Romania since its not any closer to russia,  but coming to the middle easy in force with Germany and taking the Caucus and forcing the action southward surely would make taking lenningrad and the soviets therefore loosing archangel easier.  But if the Allies see it they may consider moving planes in range to hit it.  Did you have to defend your transports with a CVN?  or did you build an airbase there too?  Another good option. Never thought about an Under Southern Route of transports tanks and men hitting the Ukraine , caucus, and Rostov before.

[gamerman01]

knp - switch sides and see how that goes.

[Jennifer]

I’d like to close this thread soon.  Alpha 3 is currently out and there are numerous threads rehashing the same comments.