Italy a bad design

[hewhoisnickel]

@pusfilledwart:

G1 just build cv and 2 AP, and UK wastes the Italian fleet, then Germany wastes UK. Game over.

Should be like 10 minutes. Don’t even set up the other pieces

this isnt true. sea lion wont work. its a flawed plan that should never even be used

:?

Whaaat?

Why not? Sea Lion has worked for Germany in the games I’ve played, and whenever it succeeded it led to victory.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@hewhoisnickel:

@pusfilledwart:

G1 just build cv and 2 AP, and UK wastes the Italian fleet, then Germany wastes UK. Game over.

Should be like 10 minutes. Don’t even set up the other pieces

this isnt true. sea lion wont work. its a flawed plan that should never even be used

:?

Whaaat?

Why not? Sea Lion has worked for Germany in the games I’ve played, and whenever it succeeded it led to victory.

Then UK wasn’t playing correctly, or if it was taken, US/Russia weren’t. US shouls be able to liberate UK and Russia should be breathing down Germany’s back since it spends most of its money on navy

[chompers]

I don’t understand how Germany pulls off a G2 Sea Lion if GB goes 9 inf turn one outside of praying for good dice.  Hoping for good luck shouldn’t form the cornerstone of a strategy.

[oztea]

Playing a game upstairs as Germany/Italy

They attacket the Taranto Fleet….I still took Egypt turn 3.

Italy is still at 32 IPCs and its like turn 8

The Taranto Gambit weakens Egypt MORE than it hurts Italy

[calvinhobbesliker]

@oztea:

Playing a game upstairs as Germany/Italy

They attacket the Taranto Fleet….I still took Egypt turn 3.

Italy is still at 32 IPCs and its like turn 8

The Taranto Gambit weakens Egypt MORE than it hurts Italy

It weakens Egypt by 1 ftr and Italy by a CC, BB, and Tr, which can carry an inf and a tank

[Imperious Leader]

Its not that hard.

Just ignore the CV and 2 AP build and let Germany attack London with 4 fighters, 3 tactical, 1 bomber, SB BB, SB CA, 3 tanks, and 3 Infantry vs. 10 Infantry and 2 planes

Remember tactical bombers are at 4, so you got 3/3/3/3/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/1/1/1/ vs 4/4/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/, which is 47 points vs. 28 ( depending on 2 fighters, or tactical bomber and fighter)

Of course AA will take a plane, but either way you LOSE and thanks to IL he saved you 10 minutes of looking at the odds.

Then when UK falls and UK won that battle against some Italian battleships, you will sleep well knowing the British people will be eating German food and giving her income to Adolf.

This is why Italy needs to be neutral till their own turn, because the game makes it a no trainer for Germany do do this build and play this move. It this rule existed, UK would not be required to bring the fleet to SZ 110 on UK1 to block, and also to build “infantry” when it really needs to build other things.

Germany would not need to build the “Fake-shemp Sealion fleet” if Italy was protected because she would rather have an air-force to use against Russia latter.

[chompers]

If the German sub doesn’t kill the transport/destroyer in SZ 106 there’ll be another infantry and tank in GB, plus you’re missing the 1 french infantry there as well.  If Germany loses even one plane sinking the GB fleet turn 1 this is a real dicey attack.  Big potential gains but big potential losses as well.

[gamerman01]

@chompers:

If the German sub doesn’t kill the transport/destroyer in SZ 106 there’ll be another infantry and tank in GB, plus you’re missing the 1 french infantry there as well.  If Germany loses even one plane sinking the GB fleet turn 1 this is a real dicey attack.  Big potential gains but big potential losses as well.

Exactly.  Why do you assume Germany will have all aircraft she starts with?

[domicron]

Not even close to broken.  Play more games.

[Imperious Leader]

If the German sub doesn’t kill the transport/destroyer in SZ 106,

Oh you mean against the German bomber and submarine?

So you mean a 4 and 2 vs a 2?

Yes quite right, so bring that extra fighter from France and make it 100%

4,3,2 vs 2

Yea thats much better. Yes the game is not busted if that destroyer rolls 3 hits in a row and the Germans miss rolling 4,4,3,3,2,2,…. Thats pretty optimistic thinking. I think they still sell loaded dice in vegas…

[Imperious Leader]

If Germany loses even one plane sinking the GB fleet turn 1 this is a real dicey attack.

Yea with 47 to 28, losing that plane will drop the odds to 44 to 28. Yep pretty even odds i must say.

When you played this how many times did UK win?

[chompers]

Wait wha?  SZ 106 is off the coast of Canada.  How is the bomber attacking it?

[BJCard]

Kind of dumb to have UK not be able to declare war on Italy on its turn… Hell, it can declare war on Japan on any turn and Japan is half a world away!

By the way IL, UK has 3 Fighters on UK, 12 Inf, (1 Original, 1 French, 1 from Canada, 9 bought), 1 Arm (from Canada) So that is 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3/4/4/4 = 39, so yes, the loss of one German fighter makes it a pretty even battle.

[chompers]

I believe he’s assuming GB sinks the Italian fleet turn 1.

[BJCard]

@chompers:

I believe he’s assuming GB sinks the Italian fleet turn 1.

So am I.  If you bring the fleet back then you can have a a Tac Bomber on UK too for a total of 42 on D.

[Striker]

I’ve run the odds in triple A(which will slightly skew results towards Axis,as right now the calculator assumes tactical bombers only ever attack on 4, when of course they will be attacking on 3 after the right amount of casualties).

ASSUMING:
Defense
11 allied infantry(1 brit 1 french at placement, 9 bought the first turn, Canadian transport sunk)
3 fighters

Attacker:
4 fighters, 3 tactical, 1 bomber, SB BB, SB CA, 3 tanks, and 3 Infantry

56% of the time the attacker will win.  Basically you are doing a game deciding gamble on turn two.  And this is assuming Germany took no fighter casualties G1! If even one dies then the odds are 41% win or worse for the attacker.

If I see the 9 inf defense build by UK as Germany I’m not going to go for the attack. It took probably an hour to set up the game, I’d at least like it to remain interesting for a couple rounds in.  Might as flip a coin to see who wins.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Striker:

I’ve run the odds in triple A(which will slightly skew results towards Axis,as right now the calculator assumes tactical bombers only ever attack on 4, when of course they will be attacking on 3 after the right amount of casualties).

ASSUMING:
Defense
11 allied infantry(1 brit 1 french at placement, 9 bought the first turn, Canadian transport sunk)
3 fighters

Attacker:
4 fighters, 3 tactical, 1 bomber, SB BB, SB CA, 3 tanks, and 3 Infantry

56% of the time the attacker will win.  Basically you are doing a game deciding gamble on turn two.  And this is assuming Germany took no fighter casualties G1! If even one dies then the odds are 41% win or worse for the attacker.

If I see the 9 inf defense build by UK as Germany I’m not going to go for the attack. It took probably an hour to set up the game, I’d at least like it to remain interesting for a couple rounds in.  Might as flip a coin to see who wins.

Did this calculation include the AA gun?

[jeffdestroyer]

AA gun will likely take out at least one aircraft.

(UK should move its tac. bomber to Uk if all German air force is intact and block sz with DD to negate German BB, CA support)

Some of the German Tact bombers start losing the “4” on Rd2, the odds start to swing to the allies if you run a single round simulations after that point.

I do not see how all aircraft stay intact after the naval battles on G1 and none gets killed by AA gun on G2.

The first Sea Lion roll is more important than ever for the Germans which puts Sea Lion attack below 50% It could go down to 30% since one land unit must survive.  (Frood calc.)

Its like an onside Kick in a football succeeding.  See it once (G  1) but not usually two in a row (G2)

I still think that German TR builds are needed to to distract UK, thus help Italian Navy, support Barb and support Norway in the long run

[gamerman01]

One more thing, right?  Japan can’t attack J1.  If they do, the Americans can land a bomber in London.

[Imperious Leader]

Kind of dumb to have UK not be able to declare war on Italy on its turn… Hell, it can declare war on Japan on any turn and Japan is half a world away!

UK can’t declare war on Japan. Again the axis player does this. Of course eventually its at war if Japan does nothing for 3 turns.

By the way IL, UK has 3 Fighters on UK, 12 Inf, (1 Original, 1 French, 1 from Canada, 9 bought), 1 Arm (from Canada) So that is 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3/4/4/4 = 39, so yes, the loss of one German fighter makes it a pretty even battle.

OK UK starts with 2 infantry and 3 fighters, then UK brings the Inf from Canada and buys 9 more. But remember the Germans sub in SZ 109 most likely will remain and that destroyer and fighters will have to fight it. The sub can hit back too.

But lets assume the best. UK has according to you attacked the Italian fleet and did not block SZ 110. I have always maintained that by buying 9 INF and Bringing the fleet block that sealion is averted 100%.

UK has: 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/4/3 and one AA gun vs  SB 4,3, and 4,4,4,4,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,1,1,1

or 14 hits and 31 points against 14 hits and a total of 47, doing Low Luck UK kills 5 units, and Germany kills 7-8 units, leaving UK with 6-7 units and 17-19 points against Germany’s 9 units and a total of 27

On the next round Germany kills another 4+ units and UK kills 3. The balance is now UK either has just 1 infantry and 2 planes or just 2 planes. Germany is at 6 units ( tank, bomber, 4 fighters)

The rest is clear to anybody, UK falls. Italy brings the fighter to London and game over. Nobody can do anything to save it.

This is the result if UK does not block at SZ 110. AS i have maintained and proven many times over, If Germany buys 1 CV and 2 AP and commits to Sealion, and UK does not bring the carrier block with fighters and destroyer and does not buy 9 land units, UK will fall unless dice really go bad. This is a forced move sequence for a number of players and should not be modeled in the game. Italy should be neutral till its own turn.

56% of the time the attacker will win.  Basically you are doing a game deciding gamble on turn two.

I will take a 12% margin of victory offered on the second turn any day. The real problem is we should not have to be in this position if UK was restricted into attacking Italy and Italy was neutral till their own turn. Then and only then Germany could consider another buy because it does not need to foil the threat of losing the Italian navy.

Germany knows that if UK blocks with CV , DD and 2 fighters and buys 9 INF, that sealion is not possible, but it also knows that not buying a CV and 2 AP will cause UK to most likely destroy the Italian fleet on the west coast.

Now players don’t have this “thing” to deal with every-game. It is solved by the restriction on UK.