@thinrich83 Yes.
France's role in Global 1940 SE
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@AndrewAAGamer For can openers I mean against Italy. France does not have a unique role just like China, Anzac and Russia. There strategy/role is not unique it is straight forward. Same with France take as many units with them as possible. They have a role but it is not unique or strong. There role is minor but does exist. Also if the Brits don’t do really good in the Toronto raid the Italians may attack them instead of the French boats by Southern France. Also, what you said about the Anzac proves my point. Anzac role is to trade with the money islands is not really a role just a goal according to your standards. If That is part of their goal then part of Frances goal is to do what I said before, like Defending what they can of North Africa, ALSO assisting the Allies as you said before. You also said it can reenforce the areas the US takes same with France in Africa. France’s job also could be to annoy the Axis. They can do this in many ways. I could mention them if you would like.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower When I said France Russia etc. do not have a role I was going by your standards.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
The Germans had to really think hard about how to take France.
Why? The French units can’t possibly take France back and the losses inflicted are insignificant if not, as shown below, detrimental.
On average the standard German attack (7 infantry, 3 artillery, 4 mechs + 6 armor) lose 7.5 units taking France. Even going up to 10 units lost that still leaves 4 mechanized infantry and 6 armor. Typically, Southern France falls to the Italians which completely makes your comment moot. Therefore, lets say, just for discussion, for some reason Southern France is not attacked. Maybe the Germans want it for a Med port. That gives France 4 infantry and 2 artillery, using your over stacked units, to counter attack France. Plus, a possible fighter from London.
Italy, normally, will put a single AAA into France before France goes so the maximum attacking force is 4 infantry, 2 artillery and a fighter vs 1 AAA, 4 mechanized infantry and 6 armor. The odds of winning that battle are 0.13% or 1 in 769 attempts. On average, the French kill 3.25 units or 2 German mechs for all intensive purposes. If the French sit and wait for the Germans to attack them they would kill more on average; 5.3 units.
(5.3 units assumes 6 defenders at 2 rolling only one round = 2 hits. PLUS one fighter in Moscow going 5 rounds = 3.3 hits. Total of 5.3 hits.)
So, again, why would the Germans think hard about taking France?
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
For can openers I mean against Italy.
France cannot can-open against Italy because Germany goes before any other Allied Power.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
@AndrewAAGamer For can openers I mean against Italy. France does not have a unique role just like China, Anzac and Russia. There strategy/role is not unique it is straight forward. Same with France take as many units with them as possible. They have a role but it is not unique or strong. There role is minor but does exist. Also if the Brits don’t do really good in the Toronto raid the Italians may attack them instead of the French boats by Southern France. Also, what you said about the Anzac proves my point. Anzac role is to trade with the money islands is not really a role just a goal according to your standards. If That is part of their goal then part of Frances goal is to do what I said before, like Defending what they can of North Africa, ALSO assisting the Allies as you said before. You also said it can reenforce the areas the US takes same with France in Africa. France’s job also could be to annoy the Axis. They can do this in many ways. I could mention them if you would like.
Okay, let’s make this simple.
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The Allies CAN win the game even if there was not a single French unit on the Board at the end of Turn 1, before France goes. Therefore, France has no role in the game.
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The Allies CANNOT win the game if you remove any other Allied Power from the game. (Russia, China, US, UK and ANZAC.) Thus, all of these Allied Powers have a role in the game.
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@AndrewAAGamer To go more in depth on what happened, France stacked in Normandy and 6 Guys and 2 Artillery, the extra guys were brits from the the transport, and 2 fighters one French one British. And Germany made it out of France with all planes in tact. And only 6 tanks 3 Artillery and 1 Mech.
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@AndrewAAGamer France can be can openers if there are no Germans in Africa. The Germans don’t really make it down there most of the time.
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@AndrewAAGamer I highly doubt the Allies could win without France. Germany keeping all of it’s unit intact.
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@AndrewAAGamer Also, something I have mentioned is they can do psychotically warfare. Since they are bule and the most eye catching color in the game, they can lure the axis to spend as much of there resources as possible. They have the role of distracting the axis.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
@AndrewAAGamer I highly doubt the Allies could win without France. Germany keeping all of it’s unit intact.
Well, first off, I didn’t say France was to be removed from the game completely. If you actually read what I wrote you would see…
The Allies CAN win the game even if there was not a single French unit on the Board at the end of Turn 1, before France goes.
…that I said after everyone else had already taken their Turn. Thus Germany has already attacked France and Italy has already attacked the Southern France Fleet.
However, there probably is a pretty solid argument that France and French units on the board are insignificant to the overall game. On average, the Axis should lose about $49 killing the French units. (see below)
- France attack = 7.5 units or $23
- Southern France Fleet = 0.84 units or $5
- Fighter in Moscow = 3.3 units or $10
- Remaining units = 3.6 units or $11
For taking France the Germans collect $19. Therefore, the entire French contribution to the game destroying Axis TUV is roughly $30.
For the Allies, excluding France, their combined total TUV is $1,845 to start the game. I think a very fair average in collection over 10 Turns is an additional $1,750, or an average of $175 per Turn. (Yes, I know this is probably to low but I am being conservative). Thus, the combined TUV of the other Allied powers is $3,595 by the end of Turn 10. $30 is 0.8% of that amount or said another way less than 1% of the entire production. If the entire French contribution to the game affects it less than 1%, in just the first 10 Turns, as it continues to lessen over time, then again, a pretty solid argument could be made that their presence is irrelevant to the final outcome.
Having said that France is also the most important power in the game. If the Germans fail to take France on Turn 1, then most likely, unless the player’s experience level’s are vastly different, the Axis are doomed. Luckily the failure to take France, with the standard attack, is only 13 out of every 10,000 games. Though, I have seen it happen twice in games that I saw, yet did not participate in. Never trust the dice…
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@AndrewAAGamer I have seen 3 games were France is still alive and well. All three failures were because Germany tried to do so much in Round one. France has a impact on early game later game not at all. After round 6 or so France probably only has 2 guys stuck in London, 2 guys stuck in Egypt. And a Fighter doing it’s one thing some where. Maybe a destroyer somewhere to. Not much. If France is liberated it is either to late in the game or to risky. If the French ships by southern France survive it’s not good for the Axis. If the destroyer and Cruiser survive they can try to from a clean up sub crew in the Atlantic. I’ve seen this happen in 2 games. I have seen one game were France took Libya for one round, another time they re-took Southern France. This mainly happen because the Axis made some mistakes.
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@AndrewAAGamer Also, it depends how much survives say France is lucky and has only lost a Cruiser In the London sea battle. Kept it’s other boats in the med. and fighter in London and all guy sin Arica and London. Also, if Normandy or Southern France survives, I would disagree. If Frances pieces were removed after round 1, and if the French get lucky, the Allies lose 8 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Destroyers, 1 Fighter, and 1 Cruiser. The Allies lose 66 IPC’S. Lets say the worst happens. The allies lose 4 Infantry, and 1 Destroyer. Again the worst. The allies lose 20 IPC’S But lets say the most common outcome. 7 Infantry, 1 Destroyer, and 1 Fighter. 39 IPC’S. That’s a lot.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower said in France's role in Global 1940 SE:
@AndrewAAGamer I have seen 3 games were France is still alive and well. All three failures were because Germany tried to do so much in Round one… …This mainly happen because the Axis made some mistakes.
Just because the Axis plays poorly does not change whether France has a role or not. All of my discussion points assume players of good caliber following a sound strategy and using proper tactics. Anything is possible with poor play and is therefore irrelevant to any discussion.
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I have never personally seen a game where France grew into a monster like China. I just didn’t want to sound like that France never, in a bizarre stroke of luck become a monster when it mattered out of the tens of thousands of Global and Europe 1940 games played around the world in history.
The only possiblity I can think of is the Big 3 Allied powers specifically making moves so that France will cheaply capture most of Germany and Italy. In some games I ran with the TripleA AIs, the French took 1 or 2 territories because Germany was already incredibly weak after Paris was liberated.
In both scenarios France would become a monster far, far too late in the game to matter (as opposed to China or ANZAC, where them expanding by a lot could potentially be game decisive).
As the Dutch territories don’t have an original owner similar to the neutrals, if ANZAC captures several of them, they can be churning out quite a lot of air and naval units. With their national objectives I’ve seen them reach 30-35 IPCs a turn before (I can’t link specific games, but this has happened only a few times, perhaps 1 out of 10 Global or Pacific 1940 games I’ve played, including ones with small house rule changes like Balanced Mod).
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I find it amazing that there has been this much discussion on France “having a role” in this game. So much so that I logged in and made a post for the first time in roughly 365 days. I love it and think it is hilarious!
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@LincolnHawk I’m glad you enjoyed it! What is your personal opinion?
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@FranceNeedsMorePower I have never seen an Axis & Allies 1940 Global France Strategy youtube video. Every other playable power/country in the game has one, even China. Maybe you should make one? Topics could be: 1. What to do with that French Fighter? (much like the Flying Tigers for China), 2. The mighty French Navy and how best to utilize it, and 3. “Consolidation of Defensive Strength - Determine the area of battle” in regard to North African French forces (this ties in to element #7 of AndrewAAGamer’s Warfare Principles.
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@LincolnHawk @SuperbattleshipYamato @AndrewAAGamer In conclusion, whether or not France has a role they do have a a part in the game. The French pieces should not be waiting to die but do as much as they can.
Somethings France can do are:
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Use their Fighter to boast up defenses or fly it to Africa with the three guys and skirmish with the Italians.
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Stack up in Egypt, London, Algeria/Morocco/Tunisia.
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If the Med. French fleet survives, EVACUTAE them to the west coast of Morocco. After, you can sail them across the Atlantic taking out some subs.
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They can be small can openers againsent Italy unless the Germans come to help out in Africa. They can also be blockers, then the British don’t have to waste guys.
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Sail the Destroyer in Madagascar East or North to help Allied fleets.
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In the case of liberation, the French (if they have all 19 IPC’S) Pump out 3 guys a artillery and a tank each turn. This is a good army against the Germans
************** I WILL MAKE A YOUTUBE VIDEO! *************************************
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@LincolnHawk Expect a video on France by 11/19/2024 . I’m busy so it will take me a bit. I want to make sure the video is detailed. Hopefully 10 mins long.
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@FranceNeedsMorePower That sounds great. I love watching Axis & Allies content, it really relaxes me to be honest. General Hand Grenade has some great videos out that I consider to be “classics”. Floating Bridge, Middle Earth, ANZAC, China, etc. Good luck on your video and let us know when it is published, I am sure you will get a decent number of views.
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